Normal Heat Cycle?

[Coeur d' Alene Danes]

I'm just starting my own kennel. I have a reputable well known breeder as my mentor, but I thought I'd throw this questions up here to see what other breeders thought too.

My bitch has had 2 heat cycles so far. Her 1st was when she was 13 mo. old. and her second at 18 1/2 months old. I'm trying to figure out when she will be in heat again and when she might ovulate. She will be 2 y.o. in March. I figure I will only have a short window, to breed her on this heat, to get her hips/elbows x-rayed for OFA; and I'm getting her eye CERT this month. The reason I'm breeding her on this heat is because the breeder that is mentoring me loves my bitch so much that she wants to do a breeding with her CH stud and my bitch before she neuters him (he's 8 y.o. and is having prostate problems--he's her only stud). My delema is figuring out when she will ovulate. I'm traveling 5 states away to do a natural breeding with her stud instead of A.I., so timing within a week would be helpful. She bled for a total of about 31 days on her first heat and 36 days on her second heat! No change in color or amount during the cycle; and it was very heavy (changing the heavy Maxi pad about 4-5 times a day). If a "normal" cycle is about 21 days and they will ovulate sometime between day 11-13 how do I figure a 31-36 day cycle, just cut it in half?

Thank you.

[Sara]

Check with your vet - they do progesterone testing to see when ovulation occurs. The other option is for your breeder to freeze semen on her dog so you don't have to rush into breeding your girl.

[Devil Dog]

As Sara mentioned there are reliable tests these days to determine ovalation. In the "olden days" I bred on the 11th and 13th day from start of season..and never had a bitch "miss."

Good Luck.
Dee

ETA..I'm also with Sara on the stud owner freezing some sperm now, so you don't have to be in a hurry. I also {before you travel that far} would have this stud dog's sperm checked, to be sure it's viable. What with the prostate problems.

[Carolyn]

Some food for thought:

Have you finished your girl yet? From the pic she looks like a nice girl.

Since you are just starting your kennel, rather then being in a hurry to breed, why not show your girl, finish her and then breed her?
Basing your foundation on a finished Champion.......taking the time, energy and money in finishing her........states alot about your commitment to your breeding program.

Your breeder.........if she hasnt already...........assuming her Champion stud is nice, I would think would have collected and have him stored already, so you can breed to him once she is finished.

[CADRMNDANES]

My delema is figuring out when she will ovulate. I'm traveling 5 states away to do a natural breeding with her stud instead of A.I., so timing within a week would be helpful. She bled for a total of about 31 days on her first heat and 36 days on her second heat! No change in color or amount during the cycle; and it was very heavy (changing the heavy Maxi pad about 4-5 times a day). If a "normal" cycle is about 21 days and they will ovulate sometime between day 11-13 how do I figure a 31-36 day cycle, just cut it in half?

Thank you.

Not necessarily. Some girls have ovulated around day 24. Some are quick and some move very slow. You have to do progesterone tests to know for sure when she is going to ovulate. I would probably start driving around 4 ngrms. Have her tested again when you get to the stud dog owner's place to make sure she ovulated. Some have drawn that out another week.
Don't skip the progesterone testing. It's also important to know when she ovulates so you can estimate the due date. You don't want to go past day 63 from her ovulation date.

Also the stud should have his semen checked before driving that far. Have them send the proof of the results to your vet. Also any other pre-breeding test for both before live cover. Cultures should always be done before any breeding.

[Coeur d' Alene Danes]

I am very committed in starting my kennel. I have been researching and studing genetics and breeding for over 2 years now. I'm even driving 9 hours to attend an AKC seminar on "The ABC's of Dog Breeding". This breeding is going to cost me around $4,500, between the OFA testing, x-rays, brucellosis testing, thyroid testing, progesterone testing, A.I., heart testing, stud fee, surgery, etc., and that's not including if she has to have a c-section which will be another $1,200. She has been shown in conformation, but I got discouraged and frustrated with how arbitrary alot of judges are. I may go back to showing conformation, but we'll see. In my humble observation, all I see is that people go to enough shows to find enough different judges to "buy" their championship. All to do what---be able to show off their breeding stock to be able to breed with those that are the best matched to their stock to produce offspring that are the closest to the standard as you can get. She has been and is currently in Rally and Obedience classes and will be shown in those classes also. She is at the top of her classes, is very smart, and her temperment is superb. You can't tell those things in conformation show rings. I may get some backlash, but I really don't do things based on what other people say.

My question here was to see if anyone else has a bitch like mine that doesn't have a normal heat cycle to weigh the responses to what I already know.

Since I have found a reproductive specialist within 50 miles, I will be doing a surgical A.I. with frest chilled sperm. Progesterone testing will be done (at $85 ea) and constant monitoring done until conseption, and during and after pregnancy. My commitment even includes having her whelping box in my own bedroom so that I can constantly monitor and be near the puppies. (My bitch has slept with me and my husband in our bed since she was about 6 months old---once you let them on,...you will never get them off...LOL)

The CH stud that I have found and made my decision to use was determined before I even knew he had prostate problems and before I was told that he was going to be neutered. So this is NOT a rushed decision. It has been planned for over a year. I am not a byb and will not be having more than 1 litter a year,..if that. I am a very intelligent person and do not go into things rushed or ill informed.

Forgive me if I sound harsh, frustrated or angry, but I have been trashed on from other breeders for no reason for starting my kennel (I guess some breeders feel threatened or think that they are the only ones that are smart enough or capable enough to be the only ones breeding). I know that there are alot of dog breeders out there that are very nice and helpful and remembered that we all had to start at the beginning; and I thank them for that. In fact, the breeder that has the stud that I am going to use is a very well known breeder, very nice and helpful and is mentoring me through my humble beginnings. I thank her for that too.

Thank you for your responses.

[kahluadanes]

. She has been shown in conformation, but I got discouraged and frustrated with how arbitrary alot of judges are. I may go back to showing conformation, but we'll see. In my humble observation, all I see is that people go to enough shows to find enough different judges to "buy" their championship. All to do what---be able to show off their breeding stock to be able to breed with those that are the best matched to their stock to produce offspring that are the closest to the standard as you can get.

Boy, do you really have a major misconception of showing and of judging..and you really insulted many of us on here who do show/have shown!!!! YIKES!!!!!!

There are some judges that pick a dog because of who is handling that dog, however that is not the majority of judges (or at least not in my experiences) I consider myself a novice in the conformation ring. I have a lot to learn in this venue, however I owner handled my natural ear boy (something I was discouraged by many from doing) I found all the judges (with 1 exception) to be very patient, very helpful & very fair.I was nervous & it showed and i was far from being smooth & polished and I made mistakes...the judges were great and despite my bumbling my boy has done very, very well.
Maybe it appears that a championship can be "bought" if one goes to enough shows but that is far from the truth and is very insulting.In order to even get points a set number of Danes (amount depends on region) need to be shown at a given show..then there are majors that need to be won...which is no easy feat unless you have a good dog.A dog must earn it's championship..it isn't simple given or bought...period...Please before you start making assumptions learn a bit more.
And yes the object of showing IS to show your potential breeding prospect to not only the judges but to people who may be interested in breeding to your dog or purchasing a puppy from a future litter. It also gives a way of seeing other peoples dogs...to breed to the best match for their dog to get as close to breed standard???? EXACTLY!!! that is what breeding is all about, not only breeding the healthiest, best tempered dogs but making the best match possible anything else is not breeding for a complete package.....if you are breeding responsibly and in order to add something of value back to the breed you breed for an entire package not just the parts you feel like doing.
Dale

[melisa22jo]

all I see is that people go to enough shows to find enough different judges to "buy" their championship. All to do what---be able to show off their breeding stock to be able to breed with those that are the best matched to their stock to produce offspring that are the closest to the standard as you can get.

I'm not a breeder, but I hope to get into showing and I do have a great passion for the breed. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you criticizing those who show and who spend countless hours and dollars bettering the breed and breeding dogs to get as close to the standard as possible?

If one of your goals is not to get as close to the standard as possible, then why are you breeding? And if you are not showing, how do you know if your dogs are close to the standard?

[lwrees72]

Wow. I really don't know what to say about your comment on judging. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

I also second collection and waiting until your bitch has completed her health tests and has proven herself in a ring of her peers.

[saharadane]

I appreciate the research you have done about breeding.

But, I am dismayed about your comments about showing. I believe that only on rare occasions should a bitch that is not an AKC Champion be bred. I don't even like seeing a bitch that is only pointed being bred.

It sure would be easier for me to breed if I didn't have to worry about showing my dogs. It is expensive, time consuming and often frustrating.

But, as I have said before. usually the good dogs win. I have had the jaw dropping experience of seeing what I feel is an inferior dog win due to politics. But most often, I believe that the judges pick the best dogs. I don't always agree with the dog that wins. But, it is usually one of the better dogs in the ring that day.

Please reconsider your approach to breeding. We all compete by showing our dogs against each other. It is the best method we have to see what is being bred and improving the breed.

[lwrees72]

I appreciate the research you have done about breeding.

But, I am dismayed about your comments about showing. I believe that only on rare occasions should a bitch that is not an AKC Champion be bred. I don't even like seeing a bitch that is only pointed being bred.

It sure would be easier for me to breed if I didn't have to worry about showing my dogs. It is expensive, time consuming and often frustrating.

But, as I have said before. usually the good dogs win. I have had the jaw dropping experience of seeing what I feel is an inferior dog win due to politics. But most often, I believe that the judges pick the best dogs. I don't always agree with the dog that wins. But, it is usually one of the better dogs in the ring that day.

Please reconsider your approach to breeding. We all compete by showing our dogs against each other. It is the best method we have to see what is being bred and improving the breed.

Great post !

[Brindle baby]

My jaw is dropped by what you have said about showing especially in this area of the country! I have shown in Spokane and Cd'A for the past 3 or 4 years and I don't think I have seen ONE professional handler. There are experienced breeder/owner/handlers, but off the top of my head I don't remember anyone else besides us regular folks out there showing.

[CADRMNDANES]

My jaw is dropped by what you have said about showing especially in this area of the country! I have shown in Spokane and Cd'A for the past 3 or 4 years and I don't think I have seen ONE professional handler. There are experienced breeder/owner/handlers, but off the top of my head I don't remember anyone else besides us regular folks out there showing.

I agree!! I know the folks in that area and they are awesome!!! Plus they have nice dogs that are winning. There are always going to be other shows & judges. You go to judges that
put up color and owner handlers. Plus if you a have a dane that comes close to the standard with limited faults, has a good temperament, can move well and is show trained then they should do well. A good mentor should be sharing this type of info.

There are some great owner handling seminars in WA in the spring/summer. Lots of good
info.

Personally I would rather have dogs showing then be in the whelping box!

[rhydtsdanes]

I am not trying to beat a dead horse and I think much has been already said. My only other concerns is that your mentor is the one telling you, you need to breed to her CH stud. that she thinks you bitch is beautiful. All well and good but a mentor should be just that a mentor. By telling you to use her stud concerns me and I would not want you to be mislead.

Has anyone else evaluated your bitch to conformation being you are so distained to the ring? Has anyone put both your bitch and your studs pedigrees together to see what king of breeding this will be. What puppies has he already produced? How many CH does he have to his credit?

Glad to hear that you are going to health test, but much more is involved in bringing beautiful babies into this world that can't be overlooked.

Can heat cycles vary yes, can't they ovulate at different times absolutely.

Good luck,

[Shotah]

One other thing rings bells for me. Please correct me if I'm wrong (since I'm new to Danes--I've just read a lot!) but don't the giant breeds reach maturity at 3 years old? Isn't your bitch 2? Wouldn't it be a bad thing to put that kind of stress on her body before it's fully grown and mature? Will it throw the tests off if done on an immature bitch? (sorry, don't mean to offend anyone, just wondering )

IMO you should just go with frozen and give her a little more time to get some age under her belt. I'm not real big on the show scene either--just a pet owner here that will never breed--but I REALLY understand why people think it's necessary to show before you breed. Take your time, give it another few thoughts and go from there! Best of luck!