brindle show markings

[littlethyme]

I've got a quick question and I've looked thru archives but haven't found anything about it. How is a show marked brindle constituted? How heavy or lite should the stripes be to considered a "show-marked" brindle. If there is white markings how...dang, how to word this...how much is allowed before it is a fault? I've seen pictures of onyx brindles, but haven't seen any show. Is it a mismarking? Is there a site where I can read more on this coloration? (novice assumption)I assume an onyx has a black base coat with fawn stripes? Further assumption, onyx comes from brindle/fawn breedings. Or is there another, say black, in the background?

I enjoyed the thread about color genetics and how it was explained about the dilutes and brindle having a separate gene responsible for the striping. Onyx wasn't touched upon. I also enjoyed the links for mismarkeds, and I must admit that it opened my eyes about the strict need to conform to color ethics. The brindle merle was an assault on the senses! I sure it's a great pet, but could you imagine the picasso looking offspring! DANG!! I'm not naive enough to think that it couldn't happen, and most probably does.

[day_z mae]

RE: brindle show markings

I am not a show person but ginnie.com had something on oncy brindles awhile back here is the link to that. Plus my baby girl is one too.

http://www.ginnie.com/DaDane282.shtml

[Aggie]

RE: brindle show markings

Pretty sure that the one on Ginnie is a Champ, also, though I'm not positive. Pretty sure there is nothing truly disqualifying in a brindle as long as the only white is a small patch on the chest...although even and clear brindling is most desired I have seen champs also who have but a few stripes at all...

[littlethyme]

RE: brindle show markings

Thanks Marie and Aggie for your help. Marie you baby is so pretty. And the link did help. I wasn't sure if an Onyx could be shown. Do you know if a Onyx comes from the same color coding as other brindles? How is the normal fawn base coat more masked, or is it that the black coat perceived is actually just super heavy striping with the fawn bse coat showing thru?

[day_z mae]

RE: brindle show markings

Ugh I have been looking for this thread that was posted on this site gosh 6-8 months ago where someone can't remember who answered your questions. I found one JPY did maybe this one will help while I look for the other thread.

http://www.danesonline.com/dcforum/DCForumID11/47.html

[day_z mae]

RE: brindle show markings

I know the one on ginnie.com has been shown and I think she is a champ. Color coding I have no clue, hopefully someone will chime in here and tell ya. But when I look at Day-Z' base coat she is black and her stripes are fawn all the way through.

I couldn't find the post I was looking for either sorry.

[alicat613]

RE: brindle show markings

I believe it can vary heavily. I was just looking at a very very very lightly marked Brindle in some pics that was doing well. Jo (Hof Kurz) has a nicely marked brindle that's also doing well. And then there's Blackwatch's Tamiana who is much darker. All are considered show marked I'd assume since all are in the ring, so I think it's more a matter of preference and of course, what comes out of the breeding.

[littlethyme]

RE: brindle show markings

Cool. I've been sifting through some more old threads and have hit on a couple of brindle oriented ones. I'll keep looking...and looking... and looking.lOL
I didn't know if there was any restrictions about striping like with harl and black markings. I've seen the lightly and medium marked danes at shows, but haven't seen the heavier or onyx marked danes in my area. The only heavier marked dogs that I've seen is a neighbors mastiff, and by the descriptions that I've found about onyxs(es?) she would be one of them.
So, is the onyx just a varition of, I hate using pigeon hole words, "normal" brindles? In other words, the onyx coloring does come from color ethics breedings of fawn and brindle lines. (logical assumption?)

[anne]

RE: brindle show markings

To answer your question re. Onyx brindles- they come from normal fawn/brindle or brindle/brindle breedings. No black is needed, just genes for heavy striping. They only "appear" to have a black coat with fawn stripes, they in fact just have very heavy striping that gives that impression.

"Brindle - The base color shall be yellow gold and always brindled with strong black cross stripes in a chevron pattern. A black mask is preferred. Black should appear on the eye rims and eyebrows, and may appear on the ears and tail tip. The more intensive the base color and the more distinct and even the brindling, the more preferred will be the color. Too much or too little brindling are equally undesirable. White markings at the chest and toes, black-fronted, dirty colored brindles are not desirable."

Many brindles have finished their championships that have (as previously stated) either very heavy brindling, smokey/dirty brindling or hardly any brindling at all. The dane's overall package must win out over the less desirable traits.

Often, color is less important to a judge than the myriad of other things they look for. This is why so many danes with color faults manage to finish. Frankly, I've seen champions with physical faults even I- a total novice- can recognize. But when I never saw the dog compete (only a photo), I don't have the whole picture.

[alicat613]

RE: brindle show markings

Scroll down to Blackwatch's Tamiana v Owlwatch. She has pretty heavy markings, I believe would be considered a reverse or onyx brindle. Does anyone know how she's done?

Oops the link would help http://www.daneworld.com/LindaArndt2.htm

[littlethyme]

RE: brindle show markings

This has helped alot. Thanks for the info and input. It's pointed me in the right direction of thought. When I thought of onyx brindle I thought a black crossing happened somewhere in the past and had been repressed until a like pairing of genes where happened across like other mismarks. Reverse brindle is a bit misleading for a color novice like me. I think that was why I was think a black cross was the culprit>LOL. Input and links were a great help.
Crystal

[dina]

RE: brindle show markings

The best way to learn what is allowed in the show ring & what is not is to look in the standard;
http://www.gdca.org/
Dina
Scoobie, Rosie, & Gui
Gui's page
http://www.flash.net/~dby/Guidon.htm

[mp]

RE: brindle show markings

Posted these links (one is a repetition) because of the contrast.

This link shows a fairly lightly marked brindle (Tiger Woods) who was a strong competitor in the ring:

http://www.meadowood.biz/Boys.html

He came down to the Florida circuit and finished when my "Baby's" big brother (who lives here) was also trying to finish. "Brother" is a more typically marked brindle.

Stormi, the onyx brindle who also lives in Florida:

http://www.ginnie.com/DaDane282.shtml

has indeed finished her AKC championship and was an example of the breed at the recent AKC/Eukanuba Invitational's "Meet the Breed" exhibition. The Mastiff folk, BTW, apparently don't find the dark brindling unusual or undesirable.

As for white markings, a small amount on the chest doesn't seem to be a problem, but white on the toes probably wouldn't be kindly regarded in the ring. (For that matter, can't remember seeing any white toes in the ring.) Small amounts of white on puppy toes generally "disappear" by adulthood.

mp

[JLI]

RE: brindle show markings

The Mastiff folk, BTW, apparently
>don't find the dark brindling unusual or undesirable.
>
>
>mp


Actually, the mastiff standard requires the dark brindling. the 'normal' medium or even brindling mentioned in the Great Dane standard is incorrect for Mastiffs although not a disqualifying fault. Just as the dane standard calls for the even brindling but you see a good specimen finishing that is too lightly or too darkly brindled, in the mastiff ring, we occasionally will see a too lightly marked brindle do ok.

JLI

[jpy]

RE: brindle show markings

The breed standard says: "The base color shall be yellow gold and always brindled with strong black cross stripes in a chevron patern. A black mask is preferred. Black should appears on the eye rims and eyebrows, and many appear on the ears and tail tip. The more intensive the base color and thbe more distinct and even the brindling, the more preferred will be the color. Too much or too little brindling are equally undesirable. White markings on the chest and toes, black-fronted, dirty colored brindles are not desirable."

That's pretty self-explanatory? As for faults of color, it depends on what is meant by faults. There are disqualifying *FAULTS* of color which would mean a dog couldn't be shown, such as a brindle with a mantle pattern. Then there are faults of color, as described above, which make the color less than perfect/ideal. They are faulty to the point they deviate from the ideal of color & take away from the type and correct expression of the dog. No great dog of even bad color was held back by color alone, and no really decent dog with less than perfect color will find those color flaws a barrier to finishing IMO. (Color is more often an excuse than a real reason a dog doesn't do well in the show ring.) You can go to the 'bible'<G> for the breed, that is the standard, and not only read about but see examples of color at the parent club website: www.gdca.org You can also look at advertised (winning) dogs at the GDR (?still there?) and the DW internet sites and/or buy the DaneWorld (GDR is defunct, unfortunately). DaneWorld is: www.daneworld.com

Correct brindling for the Great Dane is a distinct gold and black "tiger" pattern where clear striping ideally meets at "points" (the chevrons) along the spine. Some dogs are more fawn than striped and some are so striped as to appear nearly black. The further from a clear 50/50 pattern, the less correct the dog is for our breed. Same goes for white markings. Good dogs with white on the chest and toes will still win. But if the white covers the feet and the whole chest is white (large eagle pattern) and/or the face is white, that's too much. But a little white in an otherwise good dog isn't really noticeable or necessarily punished.

Correct pattern is inherited, but you (a) have to track properly marked dogs for the whole family, (b) have to realize the exact pattern isn't inherited, just a general range of stripes/white, and (c) not forget color is superficial and the last thing to worry about is minor flaws of color. If the dog fits the standard, little color imperfections really ought to take a backseat to more important issues. And the judge's guide to our breed even says that color faults are less important that faults of type or soundness.

Black has nothing to do at all with heavy brindling. Black in Danes is dominant to fawn/brindle and if it's there, the dog is black and if the dog is fawn or brindle, the black gene simply has been lost. You cannot have a brindle unless you have the fawn base coat and you cannot have the fawn base coat when the black gene is present. Breed an onyx to an onyx and you'll get mostly all black-brindled dogs. Breed dogs too lightly brindled to each other and the same happens. Breed dogs as close to the ideal as you can and you'll get the most possible that are the most correct. That's exactly why the standard is written the way it is--so you have a visual guide and don't necessarily have to understand the genetics--as long as you stick to breeding dogs who are correct to the standard. Hope that helps. Good luck with your dog.