Is he "feeling his oats"?

[ouesi]

Please .. people know when they are hurting something else. If they choose to continue or escalate .. then that's on them and chances are that isn't their first time hurting something else in their how ever many years they've been on this planet.

Please don't roll your eyes at those who chose not to use physical force to gain control.
Of course everyone's behavior is their responsibility, but when it comes to those who can't speak for themselves, I don't think its out of line to speak for them.
The truth is, if you use punishment, it can and does escalate. Dogs habituate to punishment very quickly, very easily and it loses its power. Its the elevator button mentality, if the elevator doesn't come we push the button harder, like that's supposed to make it hurry up.
Dogs learn to anticipate the punishment and get wise to it. They learn to be sneaky and behave only when there is someone around to "enforce" the rules.
And yes, they begin to associate the punishment with the person doing it and those negative associations can and do build up. Makes other things in the relationship much harder to achieve. I do believe much of what we call "defiance" is created not innate.

I know some will look at what I just wrote and counter that the punishment wasn't applied correctly and I would agree. And that's the thing, punishment is HARD to do right each and every time with just the right intensity for that dog and that situation. Where a "no" might not be enough for one dog, and way too much for another. Its simply easier and more effective in the long run to teach and reward incompatible behaviors. Don't make mountains out of molehills and prevent conflicts before they happen.

[jimsjer]

By participating as adults in an internet forum, we all make the unspoken agreement that we can't read context, or tone, or sarcasm, or emotion into posts. Therefor, we must read advice with the benefit of the doubt - people who respond are trying to help, nothing more, nothing less. They aren't trying to denigrate or shame or embarrass or make you feel less than. They are trying to help.

You may not like the way that they are trying to help, but you get what you pay for -- and at DOL, everyone who responds is a volunteer, and owes you nothing except for the unspoken agreement I stated above.

[BigLittleSmall]

Please don't roll your eyes

But, you left out the most important part of that quoted section ..

[quote]people know when they are hurting something else. If they choose to continue or escalate .. then that's on them and chances are that isn't their first time hurting something else in their how ever many years they've been on this planet.

You can't wander through life thinking "omg, what if" in every situation or circumstance .. you have to assume at some point that people at least have an ounce of smart in their craniums.[/quote]

The eye roll and following comments were in response to:
"How much of a pull and how much of a twist will cause something to snap or detach requiring a vet's medical attention?"

I seriously doubt that firmly grasping any part of your dog (not grabbing and yanking or purposefully trying to hurt) will detatch or snap anything (I pet my dogs more robustly than I grab them when I need their immediate attention for an unwanted behaivor that could cause me or someone else physical harm) .. if you make something like that happen .. I believe the person needs more than a trainer for their dog .. they need a psychiatrist for themselves to resolve some underlying anger issues within themselves.

I would be willing to bet that anyone reading this thread, especially ones that have children. has given their child the 'arm grip and stare' out in public at least once when that child was acting like they had been raised with no manners .. and it's never meant to hurt or even really punish .. just to get their immediate, full attention.

Different corrections are needed for different dogs, different situations, and different owners.

[ouesi]

I would be willing to bet that anyone reading this thread, especially ones that have children. has given their child the 'arm grip and stare' out in public at least once when that child was acting like they had been raised with no manners .. and it's never meant to hurt or even really punish .. just to get their immediate, full attention.

Also please stop turning this in to a parenting discussion. I know there are valid similarities between raising kids and raising dogs, but this is not a parenting forum and frankly a lot of the stuff you’re bringing up is hugely debated in the parenting world. No, I’ve never grabbed my either of my children other than to prevent injury, and no, nor have they ever been spanked. For that matter nor do I use physical force on any of the hundreds of teenagers I deal with on a daily basis.

JMO and experience, but physical force is simply not necessary to TEACH a dog anything. Yes, you use physical force when it means separating two fighting dogs or preventing a dog from lunging out the door on to a busy road, but you don’t need it to instruct the dog (or child).
I understand the reasons why people do and I respect that that is their choice, but I do not have to agree that it is a requirement. My dogs and my children are proof enough to me that it is not.

[Tina Scott]

By participating as adults in an internet forum, we all make the unspoken agreement that we can't read context, or tone, or sarcasm, or emotion into posts. Therefor, we must read advice with the benefit of the doubt - people who respond are trying to help, nothing more, nothing less. They aren't trying to denigrate or shame or embarrass or make you feel less than. They are trying to help.

You may not like the way that they are trying to help, but you get what you pay for -- and at DOL, everyone who responds is a volunteer, and owes you nothing except for the unspoken agreement I stated above.

Since this was directed at me....
1) I actually didn't ask for advice on this thread
2) and if this is how advice is given, then I'll make sure not to ask for it

[Chiapet]

some psychology professor tip I received

By participating as adults in an internet forum, we all make the unspoken agreement that we can't read context, or tone, or sarcasm, or emotion into posts. Therefor, we must read advice with the benefit of the doubt - people who respond are trying to help, nothing more, nothing less. They aren't trying to denigrate or shame or embarrass or make you feel less than. They are trying to help.

You may not like the way that they are trying to help, but you get what you pay for -- and at DOL, everyone who responds is a volunteer, and owes you nothing except for the unspoken agreement I stated above.

I agree with you about 99%. As a new person with no previous Dane experience I have definitely recieved some amazing advice and help here, but while I think 99.9% of the comments I've received or been quoted on have been this way I do think there is the occasional .1% that has tried to help themselves feel superior. I AM NOT saying I think that is what has happened on this thread. I just feel it can happen. Almost every time though I feel it is not an intention.

This is NDR,but I chalk ^these posts up to perception. Working with many psychologists at school several have discussed perception. One of my favorite professors volunteers marriage counseling gave some tips citing that most relationships be it spouses, relatives, friends, online discussion board members, are subject to misinterpretations. This does not mean the interpretation is wrong, it is just not what the person delivering the information intended to be perceived. "You said X, I understood this as Y. Is Y what you meant?" can really help clear up these interpretation issues...especially online!!! I've had to use this several times on this board and it has really helped to keep from getting myself offended (which is easy ) and potentially offending those who are offering advice...even if it's advice I don't end up taking. Usually the response you receive is "Oh! No, I just mean Z." This was not directed at anyone specific and I know it is off topic and probably not what anyone wants to hear, but maybe you can do me a favor and try it sometime if you feel you have run into this situation (where you feel somewhat offended). I'm just sharing something that helps me with my DOL interactions.


(kind of). I agree that some dogs and owners require some physical corrections. I tried so hard to just use positive reinforcement for desired behaviors when I brought Chia (now 19 wks GD) home, but it does not work for her. She needs positive reinforcement combined with physical correction occasionally to understand that what she is doing is not acceptable. My girl is very hard headed and persistent.

P.S. I agree with the different kinds of humping and I deal with them differently. Our senior female (mini schnauzer/terrier X) was not spayed until well into adulthood (against my will, but no mutt puppies I promise) and she will definitely hump to show her dominance (not people). She tried to hump Chia in the first few weeks of Chia coming home especially when Chia was too rough with her. Chia on the other hand has slightly excited humped when mouthing on a large stuffie...poor defenseless stuffed elephant.

[DPU]

with physical correction occasionally to understand that what she is doing is not acceptable. My girl is very hard headed and persistent.

Everything I have read and know tells me that the physical correction is ineffectual. Dogs learn farily quickly the association between a behavior and punishment provided the punishment is effective. And punishment does not have to be physical to be effective, as a matter of fact a punishment based on the relationship is the most effective, IMO. In addition the dog also learns the word or sound or body language as a predictor of the consequence. If the consequences were ineffective from the start then I can see an owner viewing their dog as hard headed and persistent.

[Chiapet]

Everything I have read and know tells me that the physical correction is ineffectual. Dogs learn farily quickly the association between a behavior and punishment provided the punishment is effective. And punishment does not have to be physical to be effective, as a matter of fact a punishment based on the relationship is the most effective, IMO. In addition the dog also learns the word or sound or body language as a predictor of the consequence. If the consequences were ineffective from the start then I can see an owner viewing their dog as hard headed and persistent.

In my experience physical corrections are definitely not ineffectual. They are not for everyone and certainly not every dog. I feel physical corrections are less effective as an overall method of training absolutely and should by no means be used exclusively or even heavily. I am by no means saying punishment has to be physical to be effective, but occasionally I do feel it can be the safest or the most clear. I do agree with you about ineffective consequences from the start, but I do not think physical corrections always fall into this category. I believe different methods of training and communication work for different dogs and people.

[angeldane]

What kind of physical force are you using on a 4.5 month old?
Puppies are puppies they aren't being stubborn just young and have short attention spans.
Redirection and praise for desired behavior are the only things I would recommend with a puppy.
Of course if pup jumps on couch, jumps on you, or pulling on leash then you may have to direct them your hands.
Edit to add, for me it's hard to know what someone means by physical correction. It could be anything from having your pup on a slip lead or even a leash to beating them with a tire iron.
To me some physical is perfectly fine and very affective, you put a leash on a pup and walk in opposite direction every time he pulls he'll rarely challenge that punishment as he just learns to follow. Time out is also very effective physical and mental punishment, you remove animal from fun and he gets left alone.
Slap a pup for peeing on the rug doesn't compute, punishment= mean human.
Not everything has to be hands off and treat based to work.

[ouesi]

I tried so hard to just use positive reinforcement for desired behaviors when I brought Chia (now 19 wks GD) home, but it does not work for her. She needs positive reinforcement combined with physical correction occasionally to understand that what she is doing is not acceptable. My girl is very hard headed and persistent.

One of my favorite quotes about PR training goes something like: “to use positive reinforcement you have to actually train the dog, not just act positive about having an untrained dog.”

I’m NOT saying you’re not training your dog. But I do think sometimes people get the wrong idea about what PR training involves. Its not just a question of catching your dog being good and hope that they never do anything you don’t want them to. PR training -just like ANY good training- is about teaching behaviors you do want, reinforcing them, preventing behaviors you don’t, interrupting them and building alternate ones. Its about teaching the dog self control and impulse control. And above all, its about making yourself your dog’s biggest reinforcement. Then when you DO need to punish (and you will), something like removal of your attention packs a powerful punch (pun intended).

FWIW, while the choice to use physical punishment or not is entirely up to you, I would argue that NO dog “needs” physical punishment. We may choose to go that route, we may prefer to go that route, but its never because of the dog.

[Chiapet]

I had typed out a detailed specific response and then the darn back button on the mouse...it wasn't very concise anyway so here's the new version.

What kind of physical force are you using on a 4.5 month old?
Puppies are puppies they aren't being stubborn just young and have short attention spans.
Redirection and praise for desired behavior are the only things I would recommend with a puppy.
Of course if pup jumps on couch, jumps on you, or pulling on leash then you may have to direct them your hands.
Edit to add, for me it's hard to know what someone means by physical correction. It could be anything from having your pup on a slip lead or even a leash to beating them with a tire iron.
To me some physical is perfectly fine and very affective, you put a leash on a pup and walk in opposite direction every time he pulls he'll rarely challenge that punishment as he just learns to follow. Time out is also very effective physical and mental punishment, you remove animal from fun and he gets left alone.
Slap a pup for peeing on the rug doesn't compute, punishment= mean human.
Not everything has to be hands off and treat based to work.

What you have said (not just the highlighted) is exactly what I wanted to address in my last post before I had to cut it short and leave work. I was going to add some of that when I came home. You have essentially said what I was going to, but probably more clear as I tend to ramble and circle around my points. I view corrections differently than punishments. I consider direction with my hands physical corrections. I am correcting her behavior and reinforcing the end result and desired behavior. We mostly train hands on and without treats as treats rev up the seniors (even from another room) causing too much distraction for her attention span.

One of my favorite quotes about PR training goes something like: “to use positive reinforcement you have to actually train the dog, not just act positive about having an untrained dog.”

I’m NOT saying you’re not training your dog. But I do think sometimes people get the wrong idea about what PR training involves. Its not just a question of catching your dog being good and hope that they never do anything you don’t want them to. PR training -just like ANY good training- is about teaching behaviors you do want, reinforcing them, preventing behaviors you don’t, interrupting them and building alternate ones. Its about teaching the dog self control and impulse control. And above all, its about making yourself your dog’s biggest reinforcement. Then when you DO need to punish (and you will), something like removal of your attention packs a powerful punch (pun intended).

FWIW, while the choice to use physical punishment or not is entirely up to you, I would argue that NO dog “needs” physical punishment. We may choose to go that route, we may prefer to go that route, but its never because of the dog.

I understand what you mean and where you are coming from. I may have chosen the wrong word, but I know I didn't say "needs." I agree. I think for some owner/dog combinations some light inclusions may work, but I was speaking about physical corrections not punishments. IMO correction is different than punishment. Just to clear this up.

Everything I mentioned except the following quote from an earlier post I was speaking of corrections. "I am by no means saying punishment has to be physical to be effective, but occasionally I do feel it can be the safest or the most clear." An example of punishment I speak of here- for us is time out as we physically put her in her kennel with a verbal "timeout" cue. Extremely different than her normal crate cue where she goes in and receives a treat. Timeout is also mental punishment, but part of her personal learning and why her timeouts have been working for her is the physical aspect because I put my hands on her immediately when she is doing the behavior and make an a-line for the kennel. The only behaviors she gets time outs for are when she has decided to ignore a command she knows (she's a puppy we're working) and exhibits a behavior that could endanger her safety or the safety of our seniors or the toddlers. Ok. Hope I have cleared that up. If not it'll have to do. Back to back overnight twelve hour shifts do not a skilled poster make. Goodnight and thak you for your opinions

[Eefsting]

I have actually enjoyed reading this thread, but am sorry about the underlying issues and frustration. I think punishment is subjective and we all come from different backgrounds so we will all have different takes on the application of it.

I completely agree with Carolyn on this - as that is totally what I would do with my pup (and have done). I have grabbed him by the scruff of the neck (which is no more than his mother may have done) and made him look at me and understand by the tone of my voice that he has done wrong. By being consistent, he easily knows that I set the rules. That doesn't mean that we don't use positive reinforcement as our first training method of choice...just that when things call for stronger measures, I am not afraid to remind him.

[Greenmagick]

I have not been around a ton litters but have been around in daycamp etc. The mothers I have seen, the daycamp I have seen, I have never seen a stable dog immediately grab another dog by the throat and throw them to the ground for humping. I have seen growls, lip raises, and usually avoidance. (talking about when puppies do it, adult dogs it does seem to escalate quicker).

[Carolyn]

<<I have never seen a stable dog immediately grab another dog by the throat and throw them to the ground for humping.>>

Is this an analogy of what someone said to do to their pup? If so, please point out where in this thread anyone said to do that?

[Greenmagick]

No, its not....and I actually meant to say or.

My point was I think many people watch dogs "correct" each other and try to replicate it but miss all the nuances and warnings in between. I think that is extremely confusing to a dog.