Young Dane showing some aggression

[NatashaL]

Hello,

I have a 1 year and 9 month old Great Dane who has recently shown some aggression to new people. Murph has grown up on a farm, and has been relatively well socialized. He has been in 6 different classes (puppy obedience, dog manners x2, scent detection, rally obedience, reactive dog class)all in an attempt to get him socialized in controlled settings. He has always been reactive to unknown dogs but that's an issue for another day!
I recently moved to an apartment with a big yard. He has done very well adjusting to the new space and seems content when it's just him and I. However, when someone he doesn't know comes to visit, he has begun to show some aggression including barking, curling his lips to show his teeth, some growling and nipping.
Usually when I know someone new is coming over I will put him in his crate at first (he sleeps most nights in the crate and goes there frequently on his own during the day) to give him a chance to hear the persons voice. Then I usually barricade him in a bedroom with a baby gate so he can see me and the new person and have them drop treats in the room as they walk by, without looking at him. Eventually, I try to let him meet the person on leash and have them give him lots of treats, but if given the chance, Murph tries to "stare down" the person and tries to nip at their hands and sometimes growl. He is especially reactive to men, but I have had him since he was 8 weeks old and I know he hasn't had any negative experiences with men.
Anyway, I would just like some input on this. Am I going about desensitizing him in the right way? Could this just be an adjustment phase with moving and still being a young dog? Is there something else I could be doing?
Thanks in advance,
Natasha

[Hiraeth]

He could be going through a fear period, but that sounds like unusual behavior to me, especially for a dog who has been well-socialized with strangers.

Have you contacted his breeder about these issues? Do any sort of anxiety/fear issues run in his lines?

I think a professional behaviorist is needed to assess the situation, and there's little advice we can give you in an online setting without being there in person to analyze the severity of the situation.

[mnmouse]

It doesn't sound like you're doing anything "wrong" like punishing him for aggressive behavior, and the things you're trying sound okay, but yes, a professional behaviorist (not just a run of the mill dog trainer) is really the best way to handle this situation.

[Lewis&Clark]

Clark has issues with people coming to the house, too. We worked with a trainer, and still do, about these issues. Our routine when someone comes to the house:
1) Clark is in kennel in a separate room from the entrance with favourite treat or chew toy.
2) Visitors talk with my husband and I in entrance
3) Visitors talk with my husband and I in room adjacent to the room that Clark is kenneled in
4) Visitors talk with my husband and I in room that Clark is kenneled in while I am tossing treats into kennel.
5) Visitors begin tossing treats into kennel while slowly moving closer to Clark
6) Once Clark is demonstrating relaxed body language, I open the kennel for him to come out

Once Clark is out, he is watched very carefully to observe his body language (licking, staring, yawning, shaking); we typically so short intervals so that we don't overwhelm his abilities. Plus, returning him to kennel following a bad experience doesn't reinforce the kennel as a positive thing.

The reaction of your guest makes a big difference, too (i.e., if they are obviously anxious or frightened).

It's a pretty long process, and my husband and I have sort of accepted that we won't have a lot of people over. Clark lives here, they don't

Working 1:1 with a positive trainer who comes to your house will be a great investment.

[NatashaL]

Thanks for your input. I am definitely accepting that this will be a long process and I'm glad to hear your thoughts. I'm looking into a behaviourist as well. I am actually a behaviour analyst who uses positive behaviour intervention strategies with humans everyday, however my emotional attachment to Murph seems to impede my ability to use these strategies on him. I'll leave it to the dog professionals!
Thanks again!

[Lewis&Clark]

Thanks for your input. I am definitely accepting that this will be a long process and I'm glad to hear your thoughts. I'm looking into a behaviourist as well. I am actually a behaviour analyst who uses positive behaviour intervention strategies with humans everyday, however my emotional attachment to Murph seems to impede my ability to use these strategies on him. I'll leave it to the dog professionals!
Thanks again!

I work as an occupational therapist in mental health, and my dog is on prozac and has all kinds of doggy mental health issues He has his own behaviour and treatment plans, haha!

[Hiraeth]

I work as an occupational therapist in mental health, and my dog is on prozac and has all kinds of doggy mental health issues He has his own behaviour and treatment plans, haha!

A little OT, but I've been considering putting Zephyr on Prozac, and was thinking about starting a thread to discuss if anyone has medicated their Danes! I hope to see a response from you if/when I do, sounds like you have valuable experience to share.

[NatashaL]

I work as an occupational therapist in mental health, and my dog is on prozac and has all kinds of doggy mental health issues He has his own behaviour and treatment plans, haha!

I had no idea dogs could take Prozac! What does he take it for?

[Hiraeth]

I had no idea dogs could take Prozac! What does he take it for?

Not sure what Lewis&Clark's dog takes it for, but I know people with other breeds of dog (mostly Border Collies and GSDs) who take it to sooth some of their anxiety and obsessive behaviors.

It's definitely not used as a solution, but as a way to keep a dog under threshold so that training is more effective.

[Sparrow]

We got our Pomeranian when she was 10 months old and she was on Prozac. We got her from an "older" lady who I think just couldn't deal with her puppy craziness honestly. We weaned the dog off the prozac and yes, she is a little crazy and wild but nothing I wouldn't expect from a tiny 1 year old Pom. *shrug* I'm sure it helps some dogs though, just telling our own experience.

[Lewis&Clark]

A little OT, but I've been considering putting Zephyr on Prozac, and was thinking about starting a thread to discuss if anyone has medicated their Danes! I hope to see a response from you if/when I do, sounds like you have valuable experience to share.

I'm all over it! I'm a huge prozac advocate as it's been an absolute miracle for Clark

[NatashaL]

I'm all over it! I'm a huge prozac advocate as it's been an absolute miracle for Clark

That's great! What kinds of behaviours has it helped with?

[Lewis&Clark]

Clark had a tough start to life - was born at a known puppy mill in Saskatchewan, Canada. It had been investigated a number of times over the past decade, but was only shut down in 2016. There are photos of the horrific conditions the dogs (many different breeds) and horses lived in. He was kept there until he was just over a year old - never socialized, never taught anything, and with very little contact with anything/anyone. We're not sure what else went on there, but nothing pretty.

He was sold at ~15months to a lady who, while perhaps had good intentions, kennelled him 18 hours a day. She surrendered him to rescue at 18 months which is when we got him. He was less than 100 pounds.

I will always remember the first night we had him home - I woke up around 2AM to the worst smelling diahrea I have EVER smelled (and...working in healthcare...that actually says a lot). I thought it was just an adjustment/nerves thing. ....nope. Anytime my husband and I were at work, or upstairs sleeping (per hubby, dogs not allowed upstairs ), Clark would urinate and defecate everywhere. He would also destroy things in the house. We hired a private trainer, in addition to the obedience classes we had enrolled in. With our positive - force free trainer - we tried behaviour mapping via camera, behaviour modification, kenneling/not kenneling, more exercise, exercise at different times of day, metal stimulation, puzzle toys ETC. We literally tried everything, all the while the peeing/pooing every day, twice a day (at work, and at night) continued for nine months.

In addition, Clark was very reactive to humans. We muzzle trained him so that he could be safely managed at the vet (and, we were there a LOT because of all of the issues he had). We did counter conditioning walks etc. but nothing was even touching his issues. The vet suggested he may have to be euthanized.

I had talked with my trainer about prozac at her recommendation. I had scheduled a consult with our vet to discuss the option of prozac. I wrote out a huge list of all the things we had tried, and all the concerns I had. As I waited that week for the consult, I came downstairs one morning to find blood on the floor. We don't know for sure what happened, but the vet thinks that Clark broke his teeth trying to get out of his kennel in the night. That, or he wrecked them on one of his chewing objects.

So, despite my huge list, my vet needed almost no convincing that it was the right time for us to try prozac. I was in such a distressed place because I loved Clark SO much but knew how unhappy he was whenever we weren't around. Within 3 days, the pooing and peeing stopped. It seemed early for such a response, but to this day (now 1.5 years later) the only accidents he's had in the house have been due to a physical gastro upset. He has not been kennelled while we've been away AT ALL since starting prozac (he's only kenneled for introducing new people in the house). He sometimes shreds a piece of paper if I'm not careful to put stuff away, or if he doesn't get enough exercise/stimulation. Even these events have been infrequent.

Importantly, he has been far better able to respond to training. His threshold for when he becomes stressed has increased, and when we do our training I can see that he's actually able to focus on me instead of being petrified by everything. He also never used to sniff anything on walks, play with toys etc. He still isn't super into toys (unless they contain treats) but is very curious on walks now.

We still have regular contact with our trainer, he has been going to doggy day care once/week since we got him (just this month have had to drop down to once every two weeks due to early arthritis ) and we know that we will always have to be mindful of his reactivity towards humans.

That was a really long answer to a pretty short question. All that to say, the only thing I regret about putting Clark on prozac is not doing it sooner. It has changed his life, and ours, for the better. He's a much happier and more balanced dog because of it.

Please keep us posted on how things go with Murph!

[Angel7292]

We've had pretty good luck with Prozac as well for our 100 pound pit mix rescue who is a whole host issues rolled into one. We've had Buck on Prozac for a few years now and about 1.5 years ago, we added Xanax on top of the Prozac. Our pharmacist always chuckles when we pick up his meds and last month said, "He must be some dog!"

We find with Prozac, it helps with fear aggression / aggression and keeps him below his threshold mostly, plus just general anxiety. However, it doesn't do much for his fears itself. He is still afraid of everything he was before and then some. We had to add the Xanax trying to help him cope with his daily life with his fears, it's only helped some.

I think for general anxiety issues, Prozac is an excellent choice to try. Our pittie isn't anxious for the most part, but has very specific fears that set him off. The problem our dog has is he expresses any over the threshold experiences, either it be fear or extreme excitement, he does it with aggression. It's like he does it for the release and then he is all good again. He will redirect his fear of something even like an upset stomach and show that as aggression. Even frustration of things like, not being able to catch the squirrel is redirected into aggression. It's just how he rolls.

While I don't think Prozac / Xanax or the combo of the two does much in the way to help alleviate his fears, it does keep him a tad under his threshold in a lot of instances. Like, once he is totally freaked out, there is no bringing him down from that.. meds or not. There are some things he is scared of that no amount of meds will stop the outright panic. There are other things that we have noticed with the addition of Xanax that he is normally freaked out about, he has a small tolerance for and won't immediately go to panic mode.

The one thing we did notice with Xanax is that it made our dog a fairly happy dog. His general displeasure for life itself has waned a little and he seems to be in a better mood more often then not. While this seems silly to say about a dog, try living with a very moody 100 pounder who shows his unhappiness with his teeth. His happier demeanor makes him easier to maintain.

It's been nearly 7 long years with him and we do a great deal of managing. For the most part, we go months and months now without an outburst from him. It's still there, simmering under the surface, but the meds keep it in check 90% of the time. It's manageable and dogs with issues, managing is all you can do.

[NatashaL]

Thank you all so much for your stories! I absolutely love Murph, but I often feel as though I can't leave the house with him, and I can't have people over either. I am still working hard at counter conditioning but once he goes into panic mode, there is no getting his attention back to me. His threshold seems to be getting smaller and smaller.
I have booked an appointment with my vet to check Murph out. I'm hoping to discuss this possibility with her. I don't want to jump to medication but I also don't want him to be unhappy. I will keep you posted!