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  • "Wide Eyes"

    There have been a couple threads lately about indicators being visible before a bite or aggressive act. One of the terms that I've heard several times is "wide eyes". Does this term refer to the eye lids or pupils?

    I have noticed my 8 month old's pupils get completely dilated in some situations. It's usually when he's stressed out but I've noticed it when playing too.

    I have young children that love to play with him and he seems to enjoy their "company", no matter what they do to him. After reading some of the recent threads, I have been watching the interactions between the dog and kids and have noticed that he has had the wide pupils a couple of times. Once when my 5 year old was going to throw a ball for him and was making the motion but not releasing the ball and another time he was chilling by him self and they wanted him to play and were poking at him.

    He's never displayed any signs that have made me nervous, except for pouncing on them halfway down the sledding hill in our yard - he was totally playing but certainly not acceptable, nor allowed to continue.
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  • #2
    I think it is just as important to teach young kids how to play with dogs, as it is to teach dogs how to behave around small kids. I wouldn't want my kids teasing or poking at any dog, even if he doesn't seem to mind.

    Sorry, I know that doesn't answer your question, just an observation.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Liv2FishCapeCod View Post
      I have young children that love to play with him and he seems to enjoy their "company", no matter what they do to him. Once when my 5 year old was going to throw a ball for him and was making the motion but not releasing the ball and another time he was chilling by him self and they wanted him to play and were poking at him.
      I think that first, you need to teach your kids what is acceptable behavior towards their dog. From what I've highlighted in the above quote, you're very fortunate that your dog is exhibiting such extreme patience with your children. What exactly does, "no matter what they do to him" mean? Also, they should never be allowed to poke him, whether he's "chilling" or not or you just might experience a lot more than "wide eyes". Your dog sounds like a saint...
      Karen, Chance, Lucy and Savanah RB

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      • #4
        http://dogs.about.com/od/dogtraining...ye-in-dogs.htm

        and this

        Originally posted by kwhit View Post
        I think that first, you need to teach your kids what is acceptable behavior towards their dog. From what I've highlighted in the above quote, you're very fortunate that your dog is exhibiting such extreme patience with your children. What exactly does, "no matter what they do to him" mean? Also, they should never be allowed to poke him, whether he's "chilling" or not or you just might experience a lot more than "wide eyes". Your dog sounds like a saint...

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        • #5
          I completely agree about the kids behavior. I've been aggressively working with them on appropriate interactions. There is absolutely no behavior like described in the "Whale Eye" link exhibited by my dane.

          I'm talking strictly about the pupils becoming very dilated. I've seen cats do it when confronted by a dog. Is this any known dog body language?
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          • #6
            I think the eye thing is excitement I have found a dog will have a serious look and his ears will go forward instead of being floppy and back and you will notice an eerie quiet.

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            • #7
              Yeah, dilation is arousal or overexcitement (or something medical possibly). I included the link to whale I as I assume that s what people are talking about when they say "wide eye"

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              • #8
                I read "wide" eyes as whale eyes, meaning you can see the whites of the eyes, which is definitely an indication to back off,

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                • #9
                  I haven't heard of pupil dilation being a particular indicator of anything. I would guess dogs could dilate their pupils in the same ways as humans do, involuntarily when stressed or excited.

                  A more excited or upset dog will usually open its eyes wider. A dog excited for play has more relaxed facial expressions than a dog under real stress, though I tend to look at the mouth (loose, open compared to shut and tense) more in that situation. I have had success training a leash reactive foster to be calm on lead by mostly watching her eyelids lower (relaxed and rewarded for it) or tighten up and widen to a round state (going to go over threshold soon and was backed away from another dog). She had very expressive eyes and they were the first indication she didn't like something.

                  I find Dane eyes harder to read because often they are so droopy!

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                  • #10
                    Dilated pupils indicates arousal. When it comes to body language and dogs no one feature should be taken on its own. Such as a wagging tail, most people feel like it means happy and friendly without taking into consideration other body language.

                    Is the dog's body tense, ears down and back, is he air licking, head lowered, panting, mouth tight and closed, in addition to the dilated pupils? These are the questions to ask yourself.
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                    1 husband * 1 teenager * 2 great danes * 2 boxers * 1 cats * 2 African cichlids * 34 land hermit crabs
                    RIP Tyler RIP Smokey
                    http://thegratedanegane.wordpress.com/

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tylerthegiant View Post
                      Dilated pupils indicates arousal. When it comes to body language and dogs no one feature should be taken on its own. Such as a wagging tail, most people feel like it means happy and friendly without taking into consideration other body language.

                      Is the dog's body tense, ears down and back, is he air licking, head lowered, panting, mouth tight and closed, in addition to the dilated pupils? These are the questions to ask yourself.
                      Thank you. There is absolutely none of these other behaviors in conjunction with the dilated pupils.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Liv2FishCapeCod View Post

                        I have young children that love to play with him and he seems to enjoy their "company", no matter what they do to him. After reading some of the recent threads, I have been watching the interactions between the dog and kids and have noticed that he has had the wide pupils a couple of times. Once when my 5 year old was going to throw a ball for him and was making the motion but not releasing the ball and another time he was chilling by him self and they wanted him to play and were poking at him.
                        By "poking at him" I mean trying to get him to get up and play. Usually, it's by waving one of his toys in front of his nose, etc. Not actually poking him in the nose with fingers, etc. He will actually do the same to them by putting toys in their lap and shoving them in the chest with his nose. There's never any ear or tail pulling, etc. They do some times hug him and kiss him on the cheek but he'll turn into them and try to lick their face until they let go. This is one of the interactions that I'm trying to get them to stop as even though he seems to be fine with it, I don't want to push it.

                        I just want to be sure I understand the signs that could indicate that he's not digging their interactions. It sounds like the dilated pupils is not an indicator to be concerned about.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Liv2FishCapeCod View Post
                          They do some times hug him and kiss him on the cheek but he'll turn into them and try to lick their face until they let go. This is one of the interactions that I'm trying to get them to stop as even though he seems to be fine with it, I don't want to push it.
                          You've had the dog 6 months...how much longer is it going to take you to teach them? I'm not trying to be a b*tch, it's just when I read threads like this I get really nervous. It's not like you have a Chihuahua, you have a dog that can do a lot of damage in a split second.

                          I guess I'm just a little more sensitive because on my other board, there's a member who's friend's son just went through 4 hours of surgery to fix his face. He will be scarred both physically and emotionally forever. The family dog bit him. The parents were shocked because the dog has always been so good with their children. The boy is 5 the dog is 9. Very, very sad situation.

                          This is a really good article that you might find informative:

                          http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com...ogs-dont-bite/
                          Karen, Chance, Lucy and Savanah RB

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kwhit View Post
                            You've had the dog 6 months...how much longer is it going to take you to teach them? I'm not trying to be a b*tch, it's just when I read threads like this I get really nervous. It's not like you have a Chihuahua, you have a dog that can do a lot of damage in a split second.

                            I guess I'm just a little more sensitive because on my other board, there's a member who's friend's son just went through 4 hours of surgery to fix his face. He will be scarred both physically and emotionally forever. The family dog bit him. The parents were shocked because the dog has always been so good with their children. The boy is 5 the dog is 9. Very, very sad situation.

                            This is a really good article that you might find informative:

                            http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com...ogs-dont-bite/
                            You are correct. Thank you for posting the article, it was very eye opening.
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                            • #15
                              One more question.

                              Other than reinforcing positive interactions with praise and treats, etc. are there ways to define for him that the kids are simply above him in the "pack" order?

                              My 5 year old is responsible for feeding him and he listens and obeys her commands (down, here, drop, etc.). After putting his food down, she can tell him to sit while she picks his bowl up and walk a way with it. This is not a regular practice but he'll do it for her. Not sure if this could become a point of contention as he gets older or is reinforcing his place below her.

                              My 3 year old isn't consistent enough with issuing only the commands he knows for him to do what she is really asking, but he does engage and look for the command when she calls his name. They both give him a treat each night before bed but he has to do something for it.

                              I've laid down 4 rules:
                              1. Absolutely no face to face unless he initiates - which he often does ( I think to try to taste what they had for lunch - he's a licker)
                              2. No head or arms draped over his back or shoulders when he's standing beside them
                              3. No closing hands on anything - ears, lips, tail, droopy skin, etc.
                              4. When he's resting, he's off limits period.

                              He'll often curl up next to them when they're already sitting somewhere, as both of my pictures indicate. The avatar picture where he seems to be the pillow was him "weaseling" his way in behind her. Is this type of behavior ok as long as he is initiating or could he see it as his "turf" once he gets in? I haven't seen anything that would indicate that he feels this way.


                              Ok, I guess that was more than one question. Thanks in advance.
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