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  • Our Adoptee is Aggressive

    Hi all,

    On Thanksgiving, hubby and I adopted a 4 year old Dane (likely with some lab in her). We don't know a ton about her history - only that she was dropped at a shelter, adopted and returned the next day for growling at a child. Then, she went to UMGDR and came into our lives.

    On the overall, she is very well behaved. She stays off any furniture that she's not allowed on (she gets to spend most of her time on our couch). She will sit to go out or for a treat. We learned that she knows "down," "shake," and "high five." She doesn't love to sit and it sometimes takes some patience, but we're sure that a consistent routine and some practice will help her get used to it. She is very gentle and calm when meeting people (folks we've run into at the park, etc.) and gently sniffs them. Other dogs seem to still be a bit of an unknown. She is very conscious of them. Sometimes, she has barked at a dog in the distance. Other times, a dog is barking at her and she's oblivious. When we first brought her home, she got into a snarling match with a pit bull at a rest stop. A neighbor dog was off leash while my husband was walking her two weeks ago around the pond at our apartment complex and they didn't get along well. The little dog ran quite a distance and ran up on Karma. Before my husband knew what was happening, Karma had swatted at the little dog, throwing it. No injuries occurred and the other dog's owner was very apologetic as her dog was off leash. Still, we wish it hadn't happened.

    On Thursday, we had a playdate set up with one of my colleagues and his two Rhodesian Ridgebacks. We don't have a fenced in yard and he does, so we hoped that it would be a great opportunity for them to all play. We brought all the dogs outside and tried to properly introduce them. His dogs are a male and a female littermates. Initial introductions went okay - some raised fur, but mostly good. Then the male let out a growl and Karma became very reactive. We pulled them apart and moved to separate parts of the yard, letting them all calm down a bit. The female was let off lead to approach Karma, but was very nervous and wouldn't really come near us. Given some time to cool down, we let the male and Karma approach again. Again, things seemed to go well until the male let another growl out. I couldn't keep hold of Karma (she's so big and strong) and she went after the male. We tried to get them apart, and were only successful after I accidentally stepped on Karma's wounded paw. She winced and I was able to pull her back. I found blood on my shoe and jeans, but couldn't figure out if it was from Karma's paw or not. The male had some blood on his fur, but not in a place where it seemed like Karma's foot had been. My colleague looked his dog over completely and couldn't find any spots where Karma might have drawn the blood. It was probably the scariest thing I've gone through.

    We're so scared and sad. Aggression is the one thing we weren't prepared for. Part of our plan was to bring a puppy home in the summer, and now we're so afraid. Even if Karma is okay with the puppy, we don't want her to teach the puppy this behavior.

    Of course, I already contacted UMGDR for some resources and suggestions. I also reached out to Moni who suggested the "Look at That" method and sent me some resources. Reading through some of the other threads, it looks like I'll be picking up "Click to Calm" as well.

    I know that we've made mistakes. We shouldn't have tried the play date and I completely understand that that's on us and not Karma. Dealing with an aggressive dog is so out of our wheelhouse - Zoe was about as submissive as possible. Please know that we realize we need to be trained as much as she does. We're trying to get a hold of the well-reviewed obedience instructor in our area, but haven't gotten a call back yet. We're new to South Dakota, so we just aren't super aware of our resources yet.

    Karma is such a laid back couch potato. We just can't believe this is happening. Any suggestions or resources would be appreciated.
    RIP precious Zoe
    Join us on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/EricaThompsonPhotography

  • #2
    From what you've described this is not an issue of aggression. She is reactive and from what it sounds maybe more than just dog reactive. It sounds like she's throwing several signs of being uncomfortable which are going unnoticed. The Ridgeback incident never should have happened. Growling and raised hair and I would have left...done, over, no more tries. Not worth the risk. Sounds like his male needs serious work too! I would say no more dog parks, no children, and be very attentive on walks. If you haven't had a Vet visit recently, I'd do that (with bloodwork and thyroid testing) to rule out illness. If that checks out then get a very experienced behaviorist involved. Was she in a foster home at the rescue? I'm surprised these issues weren't recognized or worked on there. I would also give up on a puppy, period, right now. It's not fair to her and you don't want those behaviors rubbing off on the new puppy.
    ~ Erin ~
    "People don't buy what you do; they buy why you do it. And what you do simply proves what you believe." - Simon Sinek
    sigpic

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    • #3
      First off, thank you for giving Karma a loving home! I would ask that you would not give her a definite label of "aggressive" as of yet. She is a dog with a history. A history that is unknown to us. She may be one of those "less is more" type of gals until she gets to know and bond with you more and she feels more secure. Maybe more quiet socials instead of direct high energy ones until she responds appropriately. This distance would be an excellent time for the Look at That game that Moni suggested! We, as owners, want the very best and happiest times for rescue dogs and it is hard to downshift our exuberance sometimes, LOL! A rescue's true colors really blossom after the first month but many times it may take up to a year for the full bloom! Every dog is different...every dog's progress is different...every dogs previous experience is different. Also, this is NOT saying Karma is not aggressive. Best wishes!
      June, Bumper (deaf & blind), Joey, Daisy, and Angel Ann (deaf)
      RIP Dakota Blue Moon
      Oct 27, 2006, Oct 01, 2012

      "I'd tell ya...but I'd have ta lick ya"
      sigpic

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      • #4
        Being dog reactive in a new setting -- at that dog's home, where the male dog made the first growl, does not make your dog aggressive. It does mean that you have some work to do, and need to take some care with your new adoptee.

        When I rescued an adult dane, I took 8 private obedience lessons with a trainer - on her property - a fenced couple acres. Although Ari appeared to know basics I needed us to bond, and for him to trust me, and time for me to trust him. Also through that trainer, we introduced other dogs, of hers, and were able to gage his reactions in a controlled setting, with her bomb proof dogs, and my new companion who we knew nothing about. I later took him to a more advanced class where he interacted well with other owners and dogs, but that was several MONTHS down the line.

        With rescues, especailly adults, the word from here is to SLOW DOWN, and take every new experience very slowly and break it into small pieces and work slowly into new things. I would also really work with an experienced trainer or behaviorist who can help to read your dogs signals, and help you to read them too.

        I do not think this should change your plans for summer. There is alot of work that can be done between now and 6 months !!

        Andi

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        • #5
          The part of your story that made me nervous was that you weren't able to control your dog when she went after the male. I think you need to find a tool that will help with that while you work out her issues, like a head collar or front-clip harness.

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          • #6
            Please recognize that I really know we made some mistakes - and don't need them pointed out anymore. Believe me, we feel bad enough and are trying to do everything we can. We didn't understand the situation fully and are still learning her. Please, continue to help is learn and don't scold us. Thanks in advance!

            We are limiting her interaction. We've been very attentive, trying to learn her. the first two times we saw her interact with other dogs were not really on our or her terms. Thats why we tried to set up a more controlled and at least planned interaction. We weren't sure how it would go since we tried for a proper meeting rather than random guy approaching is surprisingly at the rest stop and random dog literally running up on Karma. Our apartment complex is chock full of dogs, so we scout the area before going out and walk away if someone brings their dog out while we're walking. Several neighbors seem to let their dogs out without tying them up or going outside with them. We're grateful that we at least live on the other side of the pond or it would sometimes be tough to get out the door. There are no dog parks here (reason#1 we really wanted to make the interaction work with colleague who's yard we are welcome to anytime). No kids for us, so that's not a problem. I will say that over Thanksgiving, where we spent every single second with her, she completely ignored our 2 and 5 year old niece and nephew - and they ignored her. Not saying that will happen every time, or that we're planning to repeat that.

            She's been to the vet several times in the last month - spayed, lump removed at the foster. Vet visit once we got her to find an ear infection and check on the wound on her foot (we think from a tangle with a barbed wire fence prior to her foster home) - which was also infected. Possible she has some allergies as well. Vet said heart was fine, but we might check thyroid due to her super super laziness. Back to the vet when the antibiotics made her sick and again when she was wetting/leaking in her sleep. Believe me, we're on a first name basis with our fantastic vet!! Good news is that this antibiotic is working, ear infection is clearing and her foot is 1000 times better than before.

            I appreciate the clarification - and reactive may definitely be the better term. We've just seen so much more aggressive/reactive behavior from her than with our previous Dane. 99% if the time, she has no issues. She was fostered prior to us getting her. There was a cat in the house and a Shiba Inu. Report was that she and the shiva didn't love one another, but that it was the shiba more than Karma. I used to have a shiba and it's a breed that is generally not super dog friendly.

            Reading through other threads about reactive dogs, it does sound like a head collar or something of the like is a good strategy. I lost control of her because I had her by the collar with the lead loosely in my hand. She moved so quickly and twisted so that I lost her collar and she was away before I could wrap my hand around her lead quick enough. Again, I recognize that this was 1000% my fault. We're hoping the trainer can suggest the best gear, but no one around here has classes or any offerings until January. We know how important that bonding is, we just haven't been able to do it yet. We do work with her on her basic commands, to start developing that. Luckily, unlike our previous Dane, she's very treat motivated, so we know how to reward her.

            I feel like you nailed it with slowing down. We're still adjusting to her not being Zoe, who we lost so unexpectedly. We tried a lot of things to transition her, but this is our first rescue, so there's still a lot for us to learn.
            RIP precious Zoe
            Join us on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/EricaThompsonPhotography

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ekathleeng View Post
              She's been to the vet several times in the last month - spayed, lump removed at the foster. Vet visit once we got her to find an ear infection and check on the wound on her foot (we think from a tangle with a barbed wire fence prior to her foster home) - which was also infected. Possible she has some allergies as well. Vet said heart was fine, but we might check thyroid due to her super super laziness. Back to the vet when the antibiotics made her sick and again when she was wetting/leaking in her sleep. Believe me, we're on a first name basis with our fantastic vet!! Good news is that this antibiotic is working, ear infection is clearing and her foot is 1000 times better than before.
              i agree that slowing down is mandatory but i also wonder if, since she is still battling an ear infection from what i gathered in that ^ paragraph, she could be experiencing some pain and perhaps that is affecting her personality right now.

              wishing you luck with her! all 3 of my danes are/were rescues but i was lucky enough to know quite a bit of history with each of them. the "unknown" can be scary especially when you are dealing with such big dogs!
              [SIGPIC]

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              • #8
                I'd just go a little slower with her - is there an obedience class you can take her to?
                sigpicSara Dellorto, Sardi Great Danes (VBIS CH Sardi's Too Hot To Handle, aka Jayne)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Charlene View Post
                  i agree that slowing down is mandatory but i also wonder if, since she is still battling an ear infection from what i gathered in that ^ paragraph, she could be experiencing some pain and perhaps that is affecting her personality right now.

                  wishing you luck with her! all 3 of my danes are/were rescues but i was lucky enough to know quite a bit of history with each of them. the "unknown" can be scary especially when you are dealing with such big dogs!
                  Her ear infection was a yeast infection - seemed itchy more than anything else. Her paw doesn't seem to be painful (except when I stepped on it ). Who knows, though.
                  RIP precious Zoe
                  Join us on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/EricaThompsonPhotography

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sara View Post
                    I'd just go a little slower with her - is there an obedience class you can take her to?
                    We are looking. The trainer everyone in town likes doesn't offer classes until January. Haven't found anyone else, yet. We're new in town . Smaller town, so we may have to look up to an hour away for even the closest pet store.
                    RIP precious Zoe
                    Join us on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/EricaThompsonPhotography

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                    • #11
                      Then maybe wait until January, and just take things slowly with her in the meantime.
                      sigpicSara Dellorto, Sardi Great Danes (VBIS CH Sardi's Too Hot To Handle, aka Jayne)

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                      • #12
                        We all know how important it is to give a new rescue time to settle, but I think sometimes we underestimate just how long that can take.

                        Lunar came to us in early November, and other than a few after hours vet visits, he didn't deal with the outside world until the following spring. He needed that time to heal physically and he needed time to heal mentally, and he needed that time to bond and trust us.

                        Give her time. Take it slow, and when she is more ready, try her out with some rock solid dogs. This is where a class will be your best bet. With a trainer you trust who can step in and help you if need be.

                        Don't panic just yet
                        Until one has loved an animal, part of one's soul remains unawakened.
                        - Anatole France

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                        • #13
                          First I want to just reach out and give you a "virtual" hug . I can relate to most everything that is likely going through your mind. I am also dealing with my sweet, lovable, but reactive Hank. (you've probably already read about us in other posts). I was not given any warning about Hank from the rescue or foster family that he came from. It just comes as such a surprise when you're not expecting it, or speaking frankly, not what you bargained for. In my case, I'm totally in love with Hank and will do whatever it takes to adjust to his issues, but sometimes it takes digging deep.

                          I'm no expert and I'm still way down on the learning curve, but here's a couple of things that might help. I did enroll Hank in several weeks/months of obedience classes. What I found was that he was already pretty good with most commands, but it was a great bonding experience for both of us. The key is to join a class where the trainer is sensitive to you and your dog and will help you be in a class with other people and their dogs. That means, you need the space to work with your dog where you are far enough away from the others to keep your dog focused. For whatever reason, Hank was pretty good in class (if we kept enough personal space), even though he reacts to a dog out on the streets from 40 yards away. I think he "knows" when he's in class working verses out on the street for a walk. In truth, he didn't need to learn most of the obedience stuff, but again it was GREAT bonding for us.

                          We still can't walk down a street safely yet. We have been working on some of things I've been learning, but we're still a long way off. I use a front clip harness and it helps, but he's pulled me down to the ground on more than one occasion when he reacted. Many on here have suggested the Halti, but I haven't tried that. Be careful and be watchful when you're out walking.

                          Today, I met with a trainer who did an evaluation on Hank so that we might be able to sign up for K9 Nose Training classes (which I've heard are great for reactive dogs). She "tested" Hank by having me hold him on one side of the room, while she briefly brought her calm dog into the opposite side of the room. Hank looked at the dog back and forth while I treated him, and then she removed her dog from the room and brought back in a "stuffed, but realistic" large dog. She asked me to let Hank approach the dog as fast as he wanted, but continue holding the leash. As expected, Hank darted to that stuffed dog like he was going to attack, but immediately upon reaching the dog, he stiffly started sniffing the rear, etc and that was pretty much it. After my telling her about my history with Hank, she thinks he is not aggressive, just reactive and maybe just leash reactive. Not sure what that means for us, but I had some sense of relief thinking that Hank may be able to overcome his issues with time. We will start the K9 Nose work after the first of the year.

                          All of this is just to say again, that I feel your pain. You are not alone. Good luck to you and Karma. And thank you for rescuing her. I hope that it all works out for the both of you. Please read the books recommended (as I have) and ask any and all questions as you go forward. I learn something every time people on here post.
                          sigpic
                          Hank 02/07/2010
                          Sam 08/25/2007 - 06/28/2013

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ekathleeng View Post
                            Her ear infection was a yeast infection -
                            Yeasty ears are extremely painful to dogs. I'm not sure if you realize this or not. Not saying you left it untreated, but left untreated yeasty ears can actually lead to deafness. Just wanted to let you know that it is very painful.
                            sigpic
                            www.rescuemetugz.com

                            Michele, Roscoe, Ava, Romeo, (RIP Daphne)
                            http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=732e92418610139ae96918&skin_id=701&utm_so urce=otm&utm_medium=text_url
                            Be part of the solution by not being part of the problem. NO BYB's!!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DaphneandRoscoe View Post
                              Yeasty ears are extremely painful to dogs. I'm not sure if you realize this or not. Not saying you left it untreated, but left untreated yeasty ears can actually lead to deafness. Just wanted to let you know that it is very painful.
                              Definitely didn't know how painful it was! We were under the impression they were more itchy than anything else. And don't worry, we took her to the vet first thing and have been treating it daily.
                              RIP precious Zoe
                              Join us on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/EricaThompsonPhotography

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