Any experience with Elivil/Amitriptyline for SA

[Big2Small]

Harleigh has seperation anxiety. She's not destructive...much....but she is very anxious, whines, howls, paces, etc. She's almost 6 and can not be crated. She can open doors so I expected the chewed door handles. She chewed some on the baby gate I put across the doorway as an extra barrier through the laundry room. She didn't push it down but opened the door it was blocking. She didn't go through to the next door, which was an outside door. Obviously, all deadbolts are used so she can't get out. It's just the handles that suffer. That's the extent of the damage when I was gone for 2 hours to the grocery store. I didn't expect to be gone so long, so that's my bad. I've been trying to leave for short periods to get her used to be being gone and coming home. Now mind you, other people were in the home. It was because I was gone that she did this. She has attached to me as her security since we got her Sunday.

We were gonna try to give her a settling in period before using meds. I'm already working on desensitizing her and getting her to stay a bit further from me while I'm home. I have no problem whatsoever working through her SA. However, I realized that Thanksgiving is coming up and we're all going to my in-laws for dinner on the 17th. Everyone will be gone for atleast 3 hours. Taking her is not an option. They aren't dog folks.

The vet suggested Amitriptyline as a calmer. It's not to sedate her, just take the edge off her anxiety. He says he's had great results for many years with this drug. I've never really known Clomicalm to work. I don't like Valium for SA at all. Prozac takes a long time to get in the system and from my experience, isn't all that effective. Does anyone have any experience with Amitriptyline? We would start this on Monday and I'll continue to work on being out of sight for periods of time to get her ready. Just wondering if anyone knows about this drug and if it's been helpful or not.

Thanks,

[Thoenix]

I can't speak about its use in dogs, but my grandmother has been on amitriptylene since long before I was born. It's helped her immensely and apparently it's the only antidepressant that she's had zero side effects from (it helps with her fibromyalgia, not any depression) which is awesome.

[TMedic37]

Just curious.... why can't you crate her?

I went through SA with Nitro and she still has it to a certain extent because of her past ( can't really blame her ). Her crate has been a god-send to both of us.

[Big2Small]

I'm all for crating, so don't get me wrong on that. I think every dog should be crate trained. However, the original owner's stated that she's freaked out. If you can push her into a crate, she destroys it and has hurt herself in the process. Since she's just shy of 6 y/o, and only been here a week, I don't want to add to her stress by implementing forced crating at this point. Mouse was 3 when we adopted her and she was the same way. We got her SA under control over time and never did medicate her, but she never could be crated. She did eventually learn to tolerate a run in our kennel for drying after her baths, which was a huge accomplishment for her. She destroyed a run the first time we tried it. I'm just about dealing with one issue at a time with Harleigh. If I can get her comfortable being loose in the house without destroying anything, we're good. I'm home 95% of the time and someone is home 99% of the time. It's just an occassional thing that no one would be home.

[fets]

Just to clarify... Elavil, or amitriptyline, is a tricyclic antidepressant (TCA). TCAs block the reuptake of serotonin and norepinephrine, so there are more of both neurotransmitters available. Prozac, or fluoxetine, is a selective serotonin reductase inhibitor (SSRI). SSRIs block the reuptake of serotonin, so there is more available serotonin. The increased amount of available serotonin helps improve mood and stress levels. However, both SSRIs and TCAs take ~a month to take effect. One of the side effects of both is drowsiness, but drowsiness is much more pronounced with amitriptyline. Amitriptyline would sedate her. TCAs also have more side effects (i.e. tachycardia, decreased urination, dry mouth, constipation, etc.), thus they are not given as first-line therapy for the treatment of anxiety. Both TCAs and SSRIs should be given at approximately the same time everyday. They are not to be given on an as-needed basis, and they need to be gradually weaned off of if you decide to discontinue therapy. Honestly, if you temporarily have to use medication for anxiety, Valium, or diazepam is much more appropriate.

I feel that you are jumping to medications WAYYYYYYYY to early if you just got her on Sunday. IMO, medications are a last resort for SA. LAST RESORT. What else have you tried to help her? Specifically, how does she freak out when she is crated? What does she do to hurt herself? Have you personally tried crating her? I think if we could figure out her issues with the crate, it might big a huge step forward. As TMedic mentioned, the crate can be a godsend. Also, there are many other things you can try, such as herbals, thundershirts, calming music, dog appeasing pheromone, etc.. Have you read the book, "Don't Leave Me!" by Nicole Wilde? If you haven't, get it today.

We are here to help. Myself and others will definitely help you figure out how to manage this without resorting to medication. Could please list everything you have tried and describe her behaviors? If you can't describe her behaviors, take a video. Videos are great tools for analyzing behavior. I don't mean to be forward, but why did her past owner give her up? Do you know any of her history? That information is most likely the most important. We can figure this out! Solving SA issues is not a quick fix. It takes time and dedication. Behavioral modification is essential with or without pharmacological intervention.

[Loki Love]

Maybe you could try Rescue Remedy prior to any prescribed meds?

[TMedic37]

Nitro came from an abusive situation and she is the sort of dog that suction cups herself to one person and doesn't like to be away from them. I am that person.

Well, I work EMS and therefore... I need to leave and I highly doubt I would have a job if I brought my dog to work with me every day:P If I leave her out... she gets herself into trouble. I tried leaving her out... and she tried to get out a window so into the kennel she went. Thankfully my room-mate at the time was home and he heard a god awful racket and wouldn't ya know it... she was halfway out the top. Zipties. Problem solved.

On days off I worked with her to make it a good place and I would come home from any time being away and her kennel would be soaked. I thought for the longest time that she was peeing in her kennel but it turned out to be drool. She would stress herself so badly that she would heavily salivate.

With all her other issues she had (abused- so people issues, loud noise issues, SA....) I almost had her PTS at 7 months. I didn't think her life was fair to her. No behaviorist or trainer could even get near her because she wouldn't trust them.

It's like one day her light bulb went on though and she realized that her kennel was a place of comfort. She LOVES her kennel now. We are still working through all of her other issues but her kennel is now no issue what-so-ever. I just say "kennel" and off she goes and lays down in it.

As much as it would be nice to leave her out... it's just not logical for her. If I lose one more $50 carbon monoxide detector I'm going to lose it lol. Two is enough.

Moral of that long winded story - I would REALLY work on her kennel skills. Start with just feeding her in it... door open... and go from there. It doesn't ahve to be done over night. I think fets asked some really good questions that will give people a better idea and enable us to potentially help you better

It's no fun... hang in there!

[TMedic37]

Maybe you could try Rescue Remedy prior to any prescribed meds?

On that.... does that help with nervousness around people too? We work on it daily with putting her in new situations that are positive with people.... but just curious if rescue remedy may help her as well.

[Loki Love]

On that.... does that help with nervousness around people too? We work on it daily with putting her in new situations that are positive with people.... but just curious if rescue remedy may help her as well.

I'm not sure it does or not to be honest. It's helped Loki through his stress during storms. We have given it to Livia prior to walks to see if it helps with some of her reactivity, but of course those are the walks that we run into no one.. of course.

[TMedic37]

We have given it to Livia prior to walks to see if it helps with some of her reactivity, but of course those are the walks that we run into no one.. of course.

I guess it works then lol

[fets]

I can't speak about its use in dogs, but my grandmother has been on amitriptylene since long before I was born. It's helped her immensely and apparently it's the only antidepressant that she's had zero side effects from (it helps with her fibromyalgia, not any depression) which is awesome.

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but I feel like I should comment on this. Your post is legitimate, and I am not trying to downplay it, but when applied to this topic I think it can give people the wrong idea.

Your grandmother's doctor probably prescribed amitriptyline for a few reasons in addition to treating depression. TCAs help with neuropathic pain, and one of its indications for use is fibromyalgia. Fibromyalgia is often associated with anxiety and depression, so prescribing a TCA hits two birds with one stone. Also, many elderly people have difficulty falling asleep and staying asleep, as do fibromyalgia patients (so, three birds). Since drowsiness and sedation are common side effects of amitriptyline, it is often prescribed to older persons with depression who have difficulty sleeping.

If a patient came in with depression and fibromyalgia one of the first medications I would think to put them on would be amitriptyline. If a patient came in with just anxiety, TCAs are going to be further down the list and not tried unless the patient is refractory to other medication.

[fets]

Yea, herbals = Rescue Remedy. Of course there are other herbals out there, but Rescue Remedy is the big dog (no pun intended).

The five flower formula is:

• Star of Bethlehem... shock
• Rock Rose... for terror and panic
• Cherry Plum... for loss of self-control
• Impatiens... for eagerness and tension
• Clematis... for disorientation

Bach webpage for animals, with indications, remedies, and outcomes. At the end of the day, every dog is different, but that stuff is definitely worth a shot.

[Big2Small]

I feel that you are jumping to medications WAYYYYYYYY to early if you just got her on Sunday. IMO, medications are a last resort for SA. LAST RESORT. What else have you tried to help her? Specifically, how does she freak out when she is crated? What does she do to hurt herself? Have you personally tried crating her? I think if we could figure out her issues with the crate, it might big a huge step forward. As TMedic mentioned, the crate can be a godsend. Also, there are many other things you can try, such as herbals, thundershirts, calming music, dog appeasing pheromone, etc.. Have you read the book, "Don't Leave Me!" by Nicole Wilde? If you haven't, get it today.

We are here to help. Myself and others will definitely help you figure out how to manage this without resorting to medication. Could please list everything you have tried and describe her behaviors? If you can't describe her behaviors, take a video. Videos are great tools for analyzing behavior. I don't mean to be forward, but why did her past owner give her up? Do you know any of her history? That information is most likely the most important. We can figure this out! Solving SA issues is not a quick fix. It takes time and dedication. Behavioral modification is essential with or without pharmacological intervention.

Thank you for the information. Honestly, I'm not happy about the medication situation either. Not my preference, but I do need to get through the dinner next week-end. Here's Harleigh's story....

OO has debilitating medical condition making her unable to care for her dogs anymore. Family tried to rehome on own. Placed her and Lab with couple, advised she can not be crated and she can open doors, must use deadbolt. First day, Wednesday, couple put her in a crate (took both to do so) and left. They came home to find Harleigh and Lab running the streets. She had destroyed crate to get out. Muzzle, gums, and pads damanged but not severely. They were upset, called OO Thursday and said they can't do this, come get Harleigh. OO's mom contacted Rescue. Rescue and I cooridnated to go get her. We tried to get her Friday but home said too inconvenient until Sunday. Dogs were left unattended all day for 4 days. They were only home of evenings. OO's mom picked up dogs on Sunday morning. She met me at the halfway point with Harleigh, after dropping off Lab at her house. We got Harleigh and brought her home. Obviously, she was thinking she was going back to original home. Anyway, when filling out surrender forms, OO's mom advised Harleigh does fine at home with the other dogs with her. She indicated anxiety began at new home she was in for 4 days. when I asked about the crates, she advised Harleigh has destroyed several crates and hurts herself in process.

Sunday here - little nervous but did settle OK considering circumstances. About what I expected her to do. Monday, same, until I went to store on soda run. She was not left alone. There were several people still here. However, as soon as I left, she began pacing, whining, crying, and howling. She was drooling and wouldn't settle down. She would try to open the door to go after me, couldn't be cause it was locked, pace, then try again. I was gone 15 minutes. She was still anxious upon my return for about 10-15 mins, then settled down. However, she was a velcro dog the rest of the day...to me.

Same day, after I got back, I call OV to get records. They faxed to me. Vet records indicate she was prescribed Clomipramine 75mg (1BID q 2 weeks, 2BID q 2 weeks then refill) beginning 7/5/11. On 7/19/11 refilled Walgreens Rx of Alprazolam 1mg 15# (1 q 8 hrs) but no indication of when first RX was done. Last meds noted on 8/1/11 of Clomipramine 50mg 90# (2 BID, taper to lowest effective dose). Apparently, this has been an ongoing issue prior to now. You know you don't always get the full story from surrendering families for fear they won't take the dog.

I begin working on desensitizing her to departure signals. I would get my sneakers on, grab my keys, and sit on couch. I would pick up my purse and move it from my room to the kitchen, leave it awhile, then move it back. I shut and locked the door when going into the bathroom or patio, leaving her out of eyesight for several minutes. I have since begun using a baby gate across my bedroom door so she has to stay in there. Door open so she can see out and hear what's going on, but not in my line of sight. I'm increasing the amount of time she's not velcroed to me in short increments. She is willing to stay on couch on patio for several mins after I come in now. She has stayed on living room couch while I moved around the house once now. When I took my son to school on Wednesday, she stayed home with my brother (adult). When my sister called my cell, she said she knew I wasn't home because Harleigh was crying in the background when she called the house. My brother reported she whined and paced and returned to him over and over the 20 mins I was gone. She knew she wasn't alone but since I was gone, she wasn't secure. SA from me is worse when I take her in the truck, such as when I took her to the vet on Thursday. She was very anxious there and back. Once home, she would not let me out of her sight. It took about 30 mins to settle down.

That brings us to yesterday's trip to grocery. She was not left alone, others where here to redirect her, yet she was totally anxious because I wasn't here. She paced, whined, cried, and bayed. She worked on opening door numerous times, hence the teeth marks in the door handles. She attempted to go out the laundry room (inside door then laundry room then outside door) which was blocked with gate and closed door. She opened door to see into laundry room and chewed on gate, but didn't knock it down or go over it into laundry room. She didn't attempt to get to outside door.

I haven't tried crating her myself because I didn't bring my Dane crate when we moved. I will have to get another. I don't know that she would be ready in a week to stay in a crate for even 2 hours, if I cut my family visit short. Again, I'm not opposed to that, I just don't think it's possible in the time frame I'm looking at.

I am not pro medication. I totally think, given time, we can work through her SA issues without medication. I hope. I know meds are last resort. I'm not trying to jump the gun and go straight to meds without reconditioning first. I've been through SA with other dogs. I'm willing to put in the time. I'm certainly willing to try alternatives but getting them in time is a concern. I'm just trying to find a way to get through this dinner without having to skip it and stay home. I've already changed all other plans so that I either don't go or it's held here.

My experience with Valium is from the boarding side. Those dogs that were thunder storm anxiety patients seemed to fair well if we gave it prior to the storm. Those dogs that were SA where generally not sedated/calmed by the medication. While they didn't hurt themselves or destroy a run, they were still pacing, drooling, licking, and generally upset. Some had adverse affects and became aggressive. So I'm not overly inclined to trust it. I'll have to see if there's a different situational med I can try for this dinner. Or I may just have to miss it.

I appreciate any, and all, input. That's why I asked. Once we get past this bump in the road, there'll still be lots of conditioning to do to modify her behavior. I am hoping she becomes more confident here, begins to identify it as home and the other as family too, and it will calm her anxiety somewhat. She may always be an anxious girl, but we love her anyway.

(ETA - She has not been completely alone since she got here. I am concerned that her anxiety level will be more severe when she is, hence my attempts to find a way to reduce it before Saturday. While it's a pain to replace things, it would be worse if she hurt herself in her confusion.)

[Big2Small]

We live in small town that has nothing dog related so Harleigh and I took a trip to Gainesville today. We didn't find any Rescue Remedy but we did find a ThunderShirt that fits her. I'll be starting that today, while she's calm, per the instructions. I'm supposed to pick up some human meds later today. I'll leave her home for the little bit that takes and see if we have the instant response some have to the ThunderShirt. Hey, the box says it happens. I've heard rave reviews from people here and others I know in rescue, so here's hoping for the best. I'm not honestly thinking it will be instant. That was a joke, hence the laughing. But if it will eventually make her feel more secure, it's a great thing.

[WeLoveOur7Dogs]

We used amitriptyline for Ripley for a few years. The drug, along with B-mod strategies worked great. Eventually we were able to wean him off of it and kept the positive results.