5 month old behaviors.... are they normal?

[tlambertsen]

Sophie is a healthy 5 month old pure dane who is healthy (recently finishing last round of shots and vet evaluation) and beautiful. It appears that she is wrapping up her teething process and has a new beautiful set of chompers! I've got a constellation of behaviors I'm slightly concerned about that I will list and see what the community says about them. I should note that we immediately enrolled Sophie in Puppy Kindergarten and basic obedience which she recently graduated from .Here are my concerns.....
1. She bites - a lot! it is not uncommon for her to be trailing behind me with her teeth firmly planted on my back pocket. She is not food aggressive but I can't even get down on the floor with her without my forearm getting mouthed. She's not a hard biter but can't keep things out of her mouth.
2. She is constantly up on the counters! I've tried keeping the counters clean but if there is food out, it's gone. My 5 year old twins don't like it when their dinner dissapears!
3. Can't keep her in the back yard. We have a 4 foot chain link fence that she climbs like a ladder. She doesn't leave the yard but i'm scared for her when she gets heavier.
4. She isn't aggressive but she looks aggressive, if I ignore/correct/scold/dominate - she bares her teeth at me. not good. She doesn't really do this with my wife or kids but for them she will roll over onto her back and throw punches with her paws (funny to watch but enraging when experiencing).
O.k. - there you have it, We give her exercise, limit the crate time, and give her chew toy's. She's got pleanty of food and water, lots of LOVE!
So what's up with this?

[tlambertsen]

Again everyone - Thank you for the help! I've learned a lot and it sounds like i'm not the only one! I have to say the best suggestion that made an immediate impact is to stop holding her down but instead, sing a calm song. She immediately stops and sit's to listen! So cute! I have to say I'm no Michael Buble but it's working!

[efraney]

Since we are on the subject of 5 month old behavior - what about jumping on you? When I come home from work and let her out of her cage she is super excited and likes to jump on me. I have turned my back and walk away but she jumps on my back. This can happen outside after she goes potty or before we get out of the house. I would love any suggestions.
thank you!!

[fets]

I sincerely hope you don't take offense to this, because I know you are simply using advise from a source you trust (your vet), but this dominating, such as holding the puppy down (gently or not) may actually be the cause of the teeth baring at you in the situations you are describing.

Teeth baring is usually a warning, I can't think of many situations where a dog will do this that does not mean, back off, I'm warning you, I'm scared.

Dogs are very sensitive to people getting into their space in an assertive way. All I have to do is lean over Lucas (who is extremely sensitive to body language), shoulders back, strong posture, facing him directly and he stops what he is doing and will sit as if to say, "okay, I submit, whatever your intentions are with that posture, you don't have to act on them."

Now imagine, you are leaning over your puppy, a big, huge person in their minds, forcing her on the ground. Even if not done in anger, even if you feel like it's a hug (dogs don't always like hugs either-contrary to popular belief) in "dog speak", a dog's natural, biological way of interpreting actions, this is an act of aggression. Hate to use the word aggression, because most people get offended that I think they are aggressive towards their dog, but I don't think that because I understand the rational behind it, but the dog does.

In the natural pack, the dominate dog never forces another dog on the ground, the submissive dog offers that gesture and the dominate dog backs off. So PLEASE believe me, and not your vet, you've gotten some very bad advise there and I would stop doing that immediately. And anyone else who reads this and does alpha rolls or neck scruffs, please know I mean this with respect, we are not dogs, we cannot deliver a correction like another dog would and our dogs know it, and all we are doing is appearing confusing as a sometimes loving human who is suddenly showing aggression.

The less correction and more redirection and positive reinforcement the better, in general.

I agree to this as well. Also please do not attempt to train your dog not to snarl, show her teeth, etc.. Those are warning signs that YOU WANT. They are saying that they do not like what is going on and are giving you a warning before a possible bite (not a play bite, a real bite). You definitely do not want to train your dog not to give warning signs before a bite.

Another example of how dominance training does not work. My dad will growl (and snarl) at Macho. He is a 60+ yo grown man! We were not allowed to have dogs growing up, and his behaviors towards Macho are reflective of that. He is much more aggressive with his commands, facial expressions, and tone of voice. Instead of listening, Macho gets defensive and barks. It then just keeps spiraling. I continue to tell my dad not to do this, that he is influencing the behavior, and that it is not a behavior I want brought out. Then I demonstrate and explain the right way to handle the situation. He does not listen. Geeez! How do you train your father? Hard headed marine! (P.S. This is extremely frustrating and I do not know what to do besides continue to remind my father and hope it eventually sticks.) However, my point in sharing that (totally embarrassing) story is to demonstrate how bad dominant people behavior can negatively influence your dog's behavior.



With play biting, I found yelping, turning my back on Macho, and then looking back at him with a sad face helped the most. They don't want to hurt us. Let her know that what she is doing is not fun. Also, play must absolutely cease if the biting resumes. Whatever you chose to do, be consistent. Consistency is key!

One thing I have noticed, if I have a friend that will allow play-biting with Macho, he will always want to play-bite with them. I have to be very firm and explain to my friends that when they meet Macho for the first time they are not to play-bite and explain why. Then I reinforce it to them. A lot of people play-bite with their dogs or other dogs. It influences the behavior and it is not acceptable.

Oh and you asked about the counter! Macho did that too. I mean, hello! They just got big enough to put their paws up and access the zone where you prepare all the delicious food! Totally gotta get up on that! It took us a few months to get this behavior kicked, but reinforce and reinforce. Always give a firm NO. There are some tricks you can try: tin foil (makes noise upon doggy impact) or an empty soda can full of coins (shake it when they get up). However, I still found the verbal commands to be the most effective. If you see or hear it, say something.

Hope that helps some. I think you are doing a lot of things right, just keep at it! You may like clicker training as well. Also, check out Turid Rugaas' books. I love her!

[thisiscyndi]

I sincerely hope you don't take offense to this, because I know you are simply using advise from a source you trust (your vet), but this dominating, such as holding the puppy down (gently or not) may actually be the cause of the teeth baring at you in the situations you are describing.

Teeth baring is usually a warning, I can't think of many situations where a dog will do this that does not mean, back off, I'm warning you, I'm scared.

Dogs are very sensitive to people getting into their space in an assertive way. All I have to do is lean over Lucas (who is extremely sensitive to body language), shoulders back, strong posture, facing him directly and he stops what he is doing and will sit as if to say, "okay, I submit, whatever your intentions are with that posture, you don't have to act on them."

Now imagine, you are leaning over your puppy, a big, huge person in their minds, forcing her on the ground. Even if not done in anger, even if you feel like it's a hug (dogs don't always like hugs either-contrary to popular belief) in "dog speak", a dog's natural, biological way of interpreting actions, this is an act of aggression. Hate to use the word aggression, because most people get offended that I think they are aggressive towards their dog, but I don't think that because I understand the rational behind it, but the dog does.

In the natural pack, the dominate dog never forces another dog on the ground, the submissive dog offers that gesture and the dominate dog backs off. So PLEASE believe me, and not your vet, you've gotten some very bad advise there and I would stop doing that immediately. And anyone else who reads this and does alpha rolls or neck scruffs, please know I mean this with respect, we are not dogs, we cannot deliver a correction like another dog would and our dogs know it, and all we are doing is appearing confusing as a sometimes loving human who is suddenly showing aggression.

The less correction and more redirection and positive reinforcement the better, in general.

Agree 100%. The dominating technique you are using is a very outdated concept. It is very likely contributing to the poor behaviors you are concerned about. This could turn very ugly soon and not end well at all. A dog that is baring it's teeth is very near threshold - it is a warning, and when the warning isnt heeded the next step is a bite. A dog that is punished (this technique is punishment no matter how gently it is done) for growling or baring it's teeth will eventually stop giving the warning and just go straight to the bite. Please rethink this technique carefully.

[Tylerthegiant]

4. She isn't aggressive but she looks aggressive, if I ignore/correct/scold/dominate - she bares her teeth at me. not good. She doesn't really do this with my wife or kids but for them she will roll over onto her back and throw punches with her paws (funny to watch but enraging when experiencing).

I sincerely hope you don't take offense to this, because I know you are simply using advise from a source you trust (your vet), but this dominating, such as holding the puppy down (gently or not) may actually be the cause of the teeth baring at you in the situations you are describing.

Teeth baring is usually a warning, I can't think of many situations where a dog will do this that does not mean, back off, I'm warning you, I'm scared.

Dogs are very sensitive to people getting into their space in an assertive way. All I have to do is lean over Lucas (who is extremely sensitive to body language), shoulders back, strong posture, facing him directly and he stops what he is doing and will sit as if to say, "okay, I submit, whatever your intentions are with that posture, you don't have to act on them."

Now imagine, you are leaning over your puppy, a big, huge person in their minds, forcing her on the ground. Even if not done in anger, even if you feel like it's a hug (dogs don't always like hugs either-contrary to popular belief) in "dog speak", a dog's natural, biological way of interpreting actions, this is an act of aggression. Hate to use the word aggression, because most people get offended that I think they are aggressive towards their dog, but I don't think that because I understand the rational behind it, but the dog does.

In the natural pack, the dominate dog never forces another dog on the ground, the submissive dog offers that gesture and the dominate dog backs off. So PLEASE believe me, and not your vet, you've gotten some very bad advise there and I would stop doing that immediately. And anyone else who reads this and does alpha rolls or neck scruffs, please know I mean this with respect, we are not dogs, we cannot deliver a correction like another dog would and our dogs know it, and all we are doing is appearing confusing as a sometimes loving human who is suddenly showing aggression.

The less correction and more redirection and positive reinforcement the better, in general.

[tlambertsen]

Thank you everyone!

[Puppy Love <3]

Biting is an attention-seeking behaviour. The only thing that will reinforce the NO biting is to teach her that all the fun stops when she mouths. Say "too bad" and walk out of the room, and close the door. Plain and simple. Be consistent with this, and you'll have a puppy who refuses to bite so that you will keep playing with her.

This is what I've done from day one. Waylon turned 5 months last week. He does not bite or even mouth anyone, ever. I'm no trainer but I would definitely hire a professional if Waylon was baring teeth at me or anyone else.

All of the others have given great advice. Good luck.

[oubball14]

Ignoring is so hard and gets harder every time you give in. Just remember to be consistent and they will catch on. Keebler has gotten to the point that I just have to glance to the left or right and he knows he went too far and he needs to go lie down. I'll tell him he's a good boy once he lies down. It was hard in the beginning and I would literally have to stand up from where I was, walk away and close a door...but it didn't take too long to get where we are now.

[LoveMyJax]

Biting is an attention-seeking behaviour. The only thing that will reinforce the NO biting is to teach her that all the fun stops when she mouths. Say "too bad" and walk out of the room, and close the door. Plain and simple. Be consistent with this, and you'll have a puppy who refuses to bite so that you will keep playing with her.

This is what finally saved me. Jax was very nipping even at 6 months and he's still mouthy occassionally. I immediately walked away from him, over and over again. He finally figured it after a lot of repetition and consistency.

[Meatos]

It baffles me why vets give out training advice. I don't dispense veterinary meds and do tell people to go to the vet, so why don't vets send people to trainers?

Biting is an attention-seeking behaviour. The only thing that will reinforce the NO biting is to teach her that all the fun stops when she mouths. Say "too bad" and walk out of the room, and close the door. Plain and simple. Be consistent with this, and you'll have a puppy who refuses to bite so that you will keep playing with her.

[Erin B.]

I have to say that the ignore doesn't work all that well, because Bubbles will just up the ante if we ignore her. She'll bite at our butts, jump up on our backs (scratching them with her claws), and generally try to engage us. I can ignore it for the most part, and she doesn't try it as much with me anymore. But my daughter really gets the rough end of the deal if she tries to ignore Bubbles. I usually end up putting a leash on Bubbles at that point, so that I can step on it and my daughter can move out of range when Bubbles gets like that. Then she comes back to try again when Bubbles seems calmer.

Hopefully this way the behavior will slowly extinguish.

Gelsi sometimes does this when we totally turn our backs on her, if she is super wound up already. Even when she was small, she would jump up, bite our elbows and shoulders. Now, if she's THAT fired up, we both just leave the room. Like, my roommate will go outside and I will go in the bathroom and shut the door. It totally throws her. She stands around like "what the...?" We usually do it for about 5 minutes but sometimes I peek through the door and if she calms down before that I come back out. So far it's worked. I will say Gelsi is a little more spoiled than my other two, I've been way softer on her because we lost my last pup, Giska, so young. Giska, for instance, would have never DREAMED of jumping on our backs and biting our elbows! (But she would give us a lecture in Roo-roo if we asked her to get out of the kitchen lol).
Different pups require different techniques, so I agree with finding a trainer to help you discover what works best. Gelsi had a puppy class and a basic class, and I have to say at times that basic class saved my sanity!

[ChaoticLiving]

Thank you for the responses everyone! Sophies fence climbing happens when she is in the back yard and thinks we are hanging out in the front (an example if she hears one of us cooking on the grill or getting something out of a car). I have to say she's so smart, if she's in the back yard - which really is not that often - and wants in, she has figured out how to put a paw on the sliding door and push it open! It could be SA type issues as she is typically with someone and not in a kennel for long periods of time or away from family much. Her snarling seems to be when she wants to play or I stop her from jumping up on me, not when she's upset about anything . The methods I'm trying to employ are as follows:
Ignore - if she bites I stop playing and turn my back on her, once she calms down I re-engage, if she does something good I praise.
Correct - I try to replace behavior, a lot of times I will give her something else to chew on, change a game, or get the treats out and do obedience.
Scold - I will tell her "NO BITE!" if she bites or "OFF!" if she jumps up
Dominate - One of the things our vet encourages us to do is if she is trying to dominate, hold her down and don't let go until she calms down and relaxes. Now, with a 60+ pound dog I have to literally strattle her and restrain her. It looks worse than it is because I don't restrict her breathing or attack her (picture a giant cuddle). This works because she calms down and then behaves a lot better, but only for a while.

I do those exact same things except for the dominate one. Instead of holding her down, I scruff her - gently - usually to stop her from jumping on and nipping at my daughter. I heard (I think it was on this site, actually), that scruffing like that is how the mom dog would keep a puppy from doing what it's not supposed to do.

I have to say that the ignore doesn't work all that well, because Bubbles will just up the ante if we ignore her. She'll bite at our butts, jump up on our backs (scratching them with her claws), and generally try to engage us. I can ignore it for the most part, and she doesn't try it as much with me anymore. But my daughter really gets the rough end of the deal if she tries to ignore Bubbles. I usually end up putting a leash on Bubbles at that point, so that I can step on it and my daughter can move out of range when Bubbles gets like that. Then she comes back to try again when Bubbles seems calmer.

Hopefully this way the behavior will slowly extinguish.

[LoveMyJax]

That is the only thing I disagree with. When Ludo is going nutso and won't calm down I change the tone of my voice to almost a sing songy whisper. Really long drawn out words in a calming tone and soft gentle strokes from his head to his rear. This instantly calms him down and it's easy to refocus him on what we're trying to do. From there I can squeeze in some more training, get him to lie down on is bed for some rest or snuggle with him.

This is a good point. It wasn't too long ago that I realized that I sometimes got a better response with Jax if I used a calm, lower, matter of fact voice. Instead of a firm "no" (actually, "no, no, no, come on Jax!..." lol), I used a low, soft "Jax, uh-uh." and it worked better. I found myself saying "thank you" because he responds so well to it. (sometimes!)

OP - I would skip the "dominate" technique...it's out-dated advice, and as you can see, is really only giving you temporary obedience.

[Jehn]

Dominate - One of the things our vet encourages us to do is if she is trying to dominate, hold her down and don't let go until she calms down and relaxes. Now, with a 60+ pound dog I have to literally strattle her and restrain her. It looks worse than it is because I don't restrict her breathing or attack her (picture a giant cuddle). This works because she calms down and then behaves a lot better, but only for a while.

That is the only thing I disagree with. When Ludo is going nutso and won't calm down I change the tone of my voice to almost a sing songy whisper. Really long drawn out words in a calming tone and soft gentle strokes from his head to his rear. This instantly calms him down and it's easy to refocus him on what we're trying to do. From there I can squeeze in some more training, get him to lie down on is bed for some rest or snuggle with him.