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  • And the dunce hat goes to....

    Klaus.

    We started a new class and another new trainer. He doesn't care. He isn't food motivated. Never has been and it doesn't matter what the treat is or if he's been fed or not. He's WAY more interested in the other dogs and people. It doesn't matter if he's tired or not either. We tried wearing him out before class this week because he had too much energy last week so last night we took him for a walk and played in the yard before class. It didn't matter.

    Female trainers can't seem to control him, though I can... The trainer last night gave up on him, really?! The male trainer that is an understudy that was there to observe took over and Klaus obeyed. Come on ladies, let's put on our big girl pants! God knows I have to everyday with Klaus or I'd have an unruly dog!

    So I'm so frustrated. This is partly a rant and partly a cry for help. This is the second trainer in two weeks, both at the same facility. Both trainers have been women that seem very gentle natured (ignore every unwanted behavior - even if he's jumping on you, which I very much disagree with!) could it be that klaus responds better to male trainers? Or is it that you just have to be more forceful and firm with him and they will not stand up to him enough? He is obstinate. I DO NOT back down to my dog. EVER. Is it just Klaus' age since he just turned one? He's getting neutered and pexied soon, will that help? Is it just that these training techniques are so different?

    We're practicing NILF and he's been doing so good, but you'd never know it in class .

  • #2
    Oh my! I'm pretty sure Jax let Klaus borrow his dunce hat that he just got in training on Tuesday!!!

    I'm with ya on this one...Jax is a handful in class! He LOVES other dogs and barely listens to me. I do have to deal with the jumping (and nipping) on me in class because he gets over stimulated. He's not motivated by food at all, but seems to be play motivated...I just become his play toy when there are no other options! I'm trying the exhaustion before class next Tuesday, but I don't have high hopes as I've tried it before in another training class.

    The trainer saw Jax jumping on me and biting me for several minutes a couple times during class...never addressed me or us about it...even after class. I was so upset and frustrated, that I didn't even wait to talk to her.

    Jax is 7 months, and I'm wondering if this will change and calm down...I'm also wondering if he'll mellow a bit when I take away his two little buddies

    I'll be following this thread
    Carynn & Jax
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    RIP Diesel ~ April 2000 (about) - Sept 19, 2011
    Rescued from a life of abuse & starvation at 3, lost to cancer at 11 1/2
    Love you always.

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    • #3
      Several questions/comments.

      Why is the trainer handling him? It shouldnt matter if they can control him or not as they are to teach you how to.

      Ignoring jumping most definitely DOES work, but it gets worse before it gets better.

      What does motivate him? Thats what you need to find out. Will he work for treats at home when he is not distracted? If so he may just be too overwhelmed and needs more space. Use the other dogs (if safe) and people as rewards as well. He wants to greet a person, great, do a sit or look or whatever and then he can meet.

      I dont know the past...but it sounds like you may not be giving the class/trainer enough time to get results. Is it the dog they gave up on or were you not agreeing with their suggestions so they gave up on you?

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      • #4
        For jumping. Disco would do this in class a few months ago....so our trainer gave my the little red can of air. It makes a loud swooooshing noise. She said the second he jumps up, spray the can of air by him (but try not to let him see it, cuz the smart little turds will just associate the can to the air), and it freaks them out, then say no jump and praise/reward for not jumping. This work GREAT for Disco....he pretty much stopped jumping for awhile. We've had to get the can of air out a couple times since, but that is pretty much the only reason we use the can. We got it at Petco.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Greenmagick View Post
          Several questions/comments.

          Why is the trainer handling him? It shouldnt matter if they can control him or not as they are to teach you how to.

          Ignoring jumping most definitely DOES work, but it gets worse before it gets better.

          What does motivate him? Thats what you need to find out. Will he work for treats at home when he is not distracted? If so he may just be too overwhelmed and needs more space. Use the other dogs (if safe) and people as rewards as well. He wants to greet a person, great, do a sit or look or whatever and then he can meet.

          I dont know the past...but it sounds like you may not be giving the class/trainer enough time to get results. Is it the dog they gave up on or were you not agreeing with their suggestions so they gave up on you?
          The trainer steps in when we need extra help or Klaus doesn't seem to be responding to what we're working on.

          If ignoring jumping works, we're ignoring him wrong because he certainly didn't get the message for the first 6 months. I can't have a dog that outweighs me jumping on me. The last time he jumped on me he knocked me over. That was the last time I ignored the behavior. He quite jumping after that except for in training class the last two weeks. It seems he's just way too over stimulated to contain himself.

          Toys motivate him. People motivate him. Other dogs motivate him. The trainer doesn't want the dogs distracted by others, we've all ready been scolded for that. The point of the class is to teach the dogs to behave in public settings.

          This is only the second class in the series of 6. My frustration is that this is an advancement class and he behaves like he hasn't had a single class in his life. I did not give up, the trainer stepped in and when she tried three different methods she literally handed the leash back to me and said, "well, let's give up on this exercise".

          Maybe it was ok to give up on that exercise, but we can't have that attitude with every exercise every week or he wouldn't learn anything. Klaus knows sit, down, stay, come, crate, heel, drop it, leave it, up to get in the car and is good at loose leash walking. He knows gentle, easy, look out/watch for sister/Kiki and mind your manners. He's been trained thus far. What we need to work on is public behavior.

          He goes out in public all the time. Daily walks, weekly trips to the dog park, weekly trips to pet store, regular trips to walk around downtown areas, we take every opportunity we can to socialize him and get him out and exposed to new things, but he still very much acts like a crazy teen some days. Other days he's good as gold.

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          • #6
            If he is not getting it then he is not ready...I know, seems awkward lol. If he is that distracted and not responding then you need to go back several steps and slowly build back up.

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            • #7
              Step on the leash.
              Katie & Scarlett
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              • #8
                Sorry, I haven’t been following and I’m not sure what issues you’re having with Klaus?

                A couple of things I can observe on just from your post.
                I don’t believe in dogs who aren’t motivated by food. Will a dog be more motivated by other things than food in certain situations? Of course. But a dog who doesn’t come out of the womb wanting to eat is a dog that does not make it. So if a dog who eats normally is not taking food in a certain setting, that is important information the dog is giving us about being over-aroused, lacking trust, having been bribed or lured too long, etc.
                Good article here:
                http://lifeasahuman.com/2011/pets/so...work-for-food/

                I also don’t believe that ‘some’ dogs *need* more forceful and firm treatment. ALL dogs respond to clear and consistent communication. Force has nothing to do with it.

                It sounds to me like you issue (which is very common) is one of engagement and focus. This is the foundation for any dog training - any communication really. If Klaus isn’t listening to you in class, then this is the perfect opportunity to develop his listening skills. If he can’t focus in class, take him out to where he can focus. Or even ask the trainer if you can have a barrier for him where he can hear/smell the other dogs but not see them.

                In the meantime, also build yourself up as being meaningful to the dog. Does Klaus take treats at home? What does he do after he takes treats? Does he come back for more or does he go off and do his own thing?
                What about play? Will Klaus play with you? How are you significant to the dog?
                Until one has loved an animal, part of one's soul remains unawakened.
                - Anatole France

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                • #9
                  Is Klaus free fed? The reason I ask is because approx. 90% of our clients that say their dogs aren't really food motivated and whose dogs have a hard time maintaining focus with them in class and anywhere else for that matter, are free fed.
                  Another reason for the lack of focus is of course the relationship between the person and their dog. Ouesi asked some very important and relevant questions!
                  Sawyer, Great Dane -Rescue - 07/2012 - 3 years young
                  Shadie, Border Collie - Rescue -9 years young

                  Evy, Great Dane - 08/02/2003 - 04/30/2013 - RIP my sweet girl! I miss you every day...

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                  • #10
                    Honestly, I don't know if classes are the best training environment for Klaus. Have you thought about one on one training? Maybe one where the training takes place out in the world, at a park or something, just you, Klaus, and the trainer.

                    If Klaus knows how to do all the things you listed, it might be YOU needing the training (on how to communicate) more than him at this point.
                    Tracy
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                    Mouse April 2010
                    Echo -- run free, Sweetie! Jan 9, 2007 - April 24, 2014 Lost to osteosarcoma at 7 years, 3 months. RIP.

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                    • #11
                      sounds very frustrating. I'm sorry it's been so tough.

                      As for the food motivation, I'm sure you have, but just in case... have you tried hot dogs? It's really the only thing that elvis will do clicker training for. He's more toy motivated than food motivated in my opinion.

                      Also if I want him to be interested in a food or toy that he doesn't care about I make it a possession kind of game between me and him and other people too. Like if he ignored a hot dog (lol i can't honestly imagine any dog doing that ), but if he did, I would hold it up to my face (perverse jokes aside) and make all sorts of high pitched "oooooh! i love this food" noises and even pretend like I'm trying to hide it from him. Then once he starts to perk up and show an interest in what I'm interested in, even if it's just his ears or his head perking up, I'll pass it to my roommate who will do the same thing. We'll both be standing there saying things like, "ooooh! I love hot dogs can I have that!" We'll pass it back and forth a few times making happy high pitched noises until he can't stand it anymore and is racing between us to get a closer look. It sounds stupid, but it works with all of the toys he hasn't touched in months. He'll chew on them for half an hour afterward. That little possession game was also how we taught him to sit nicely and ask for things he wants that we have.

                      Good luck!
                      sigpic
                      "Saving one Dog won't change the world but the world will change for that one dog."

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                      • #12
                        Honestly I am all ears at this point. I have a one year old dog that weighs 130 pounds, I need his absolute focus. At home I am the queen bee, I need that in public.

                        To answer some questions:

                        1. No, he is no longer free fed. He hasn't been free fed for several months. He is fed at 7:30am and at 6:00 pm. Except on class nights he isn't given his evening meal until after class.

                        2. He responds to treats at home, but at home we practice NILIF and his positive rewards are often cuddles and toys as well. He will work for just about anything and we mix it up quite a bit.

                        3. Klaus will literally pester us to death, all day long for attention. We've been trying to teach him to be more independent, but maybe we've somehow messed something up? He will self pacify now and play with his toys on his own. One hand out from last week said only chew toys should be left out, all other toys need to be picked up and that I should control these resources. I've never had a trainer address this before.

                        4. We have a very routine lifestyle. Nightly walks after dinner followed by playtime in the yard with training mixed in. For instance we play fetch and make him "drop it" and sit before we toss the toy again. Then we do free dog and the come command and back to fetch, etc.

                        5. We practice random commands given in the house and call the dogs for playtime. I call the dogs for cuddles and lovins. Regular bushings, nail trimmings, etc. Bedtime is consistent, etc.

                        6. When Klaus is exceptionally naughty he is tethered with a 12" traffic lead so we can control him. About a month ago we did this for a week straight under the advice of our previous trainer and started NILIF and it's worked wonders. We used the leash & stepping on the leash method and a firm "ah-ah" to break Klaus' jumping habit after he knocked me down several months ago.

                        7. When I referred to firm or forceful I mean voice wise. Women tend to have higher pitched voices and that makes Klaus very excitable. The trainer last night kept saying "nope" to klaus when he wasn't behaving and the more she said it the more inflection she got, the more he jumped. As he jumped she turned her back to ignore him but then he just jumped on her back. I really don't see how that did any good.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ChickyPop View Post
                          Toys motivate him.
                          How about finding a toy that is dedicated to training? Instead of using treats as his reward, use his toy? He only gets it when he's completed what you've asked of him, and then only for a few minutes of 'play'.

                          I personally have never used a toy as a reward but I do know some people do and it can be very successful.
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                          Debbie & Murphy

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Greenmagick View Post
                            If he is not getting it then he is not ready...I know, seems awkward lol. If he is that distracted and not responding then you need to go back several steps and slowly build back up.
                            This could be true too. My husband and I were wondering about that last night. We think it is odd that we can take klaus in public and he does not behave as bad as he is behaving in the class that is suppose to teach him how to behave in public!

                            Two thoughts on this. (1) there is a huge mirror that runs the length of the room that Klaus just can't keep his eyes off of. We tried training him with his back to it, but he's just drawn to the dang thing, which of course makes it look like there are twice as many people and dogs as there are and (2) since its a daycare/boarding/training facility it's noisy so he can hear all the ruckus from the other spaces. Maybe it's complete sensory overload for my immature dog.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ChickyPop View Post
                              2. He responds to treats at home, but at home we practice NILIF and his positive rewards are often cuddles and toys as well. He will work for just about anything and we mix it up quite a bit.
                              Do a trial to see at what point he will not take treats, and that is your starting point. At home he takes treats, what about in the yard? What about in the front yard? In the street? In the car? In the parking lot of the training facility? At whatever point you loose him, go back one step, build attention from there, then try the next step.

                              Originally posted by ChickyPop View Post
                              3. Klaus will literally pester us to death, all day long for attention. We've been trying to teach him to be more independent, but maybe we've somehow messed something up? He will self pacify now and play with his toys on his own. One hand out from last week said only chew toys should be left out, all other toys need to be picked up and that I should control these resources. I've never had a trainer address this before.
                              How much exercise does he get? How many training sessions a day?
                              Does he have a place/relax spot? Do you have a way of saying “no, not now, go lie down?"

                              Have you done any clicker training?
                              Until one has loved an animal, part of one's soul remains unawakened.
                              - Anatole France

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