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  • "correcting" the growl

    the only time i have ever had this problem was with my female corgi when ashley came to live with us. maggie was NOT a happy camper and would charge at ashley, growl, show teeth, the whole 9 yards. ashley simply ignored her, would give her that look that said "oh whatEVER!" and walk away. in a matter of a day or two, when maggie learned she would not get a reaction out of ashley, she stopped the behavior and it was never a problem again. i only intervened the first couple of times and all i did was say, in a happy voice, "oh maggie, you are such a little bitch!"...i never actually corrected her growls/snarls because ashley seemed to be doing that on her own and in all honesty, i knew it would never proceed to an all out fight.

    i have seen several threads/posts on DOL about this issue over the past few weeks. i was always told NEVER to correct a growl as if the dog learns growling is not acceptable he/she will just skip that part and go right for the bite.

    this was never an issue even with 3 danes and now that i have only pea and bentley, i have never seen it between them. they share everything, including ME, without a problem.

    for those of you with a lot of experience training "aggressive" dogs or dogs that are new to a family and the problem begins, what is your opinion and what, exactly, do you do about it?
    [SIGPIC]

  • #2
    About dogs growling at each other? Or at people? I don't give my dogs much to fight over in the way of resources but being dogs they will find something, be it a bed or a stick or whatever. Depends on the situation, if one dog has a stick and another goes up trying to steal it and gets growled at, fine, I redirect the one trying to steal stuff before there's an issue, if they are growling over something neither has or "owns", like me or space or cookies in my hand, the dogs get separated and sent to go lay down somewhere and nobody gets anything. I don't correct them for growling, but I will step in if they are getting testy and take charge to diffuse whatever the situation is, most dogs will back down to each other, mine won't and are more than willing to escalate it to a fight so I don't allow them to work it out themselves. Although mine are more into quiet pissed off signals like staring and lip curls, I can only think of a few times I've heard a growl and it's always very low, if you aren't really close you wouldn't hear it. Not sure if that's just the way they are or maybe they had growls corrected in their past?

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    • #3
      I would like to hear peoples opinions as well. Not for me (still dog free here...) but my sister. She adopted a Chi X Jack Russell mix a few months back. An issue shes having is that she starts to growl when she is getting pet and another dog walks by. This includes my sisters other dog. The dogs have never fought nor do they have any issues, but she wants to put a stop to it. So when Abigail (the Chi) does this she just stops petting her. Abby stops growling and looks up like 'come on mom' and she will start petting her again when she ignores Elliot (believe it or not hes an afghan hound mix from the humane society). Is this an acceptable thing to do? Shes not correcting her, but shes making sure she doesnt reward her for it, since this seems to be like resource guarding. Anyway, after totally hijacking your thread, I just wanted to say, Im looking forward to peoples opinion of this topic

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      • #4
        I'm working on this a bit currently with my foster. At first it was my older boy growling and being grumpy. The foster wasnt bothered by it and I know he is really just grumping so I would ignore it mostly. If it was about space I would walk the foster dog through the space Marley was growling over...he isnt really resource guarding as much as he is older and it hurts to get up. Being fearful he would always hop up at another dog or persons approach and it would hurt. I did a lot of walking Chupy by while petting Marley or reassuring him etc. He has gotten much better about it as he is realizing Chupy is not going to pounce or attack him and he does not have to jump up out of the way whenever he comes near. A previous dog we had would sometimes attack for no reason and often even from a dead sleep so he is very sensitive to that

        Recently my foster has started some resource guarding of me. He is settling in but still has a LOT of fear issues and I have definitely become his safe spot and he doesnt want to give it up. Then, this week my daughter had a surgery and we ended up staying in the hospital and then at my moms for the rest of the week to have help with her. The dogs were all home with my DH. I got back and the resource guarding started. He is not actually growling (and there is a very good chance he has been corrected for it) but is doing some lip curling, hard stares and light nips at the other dogs...mostly Marley.

        So, I dont want to correct him for "warning" or telling the other dog what he wants. I want to remove the idea that its his right to decide or that he needs to guard me. So yesterday while sitting in the chair with me Marley approached and Chupy tensed. I turned my back on Chupy and gushed over Marley a bit. As soon as Chupy seemed to relax at all...I immediately included him in on the attention.

        So I guess really what it all comes down to is listening to the growl. What is the growl saying? Figure that out and then manage it and work on changing the reason the dog is growling, not the growl itself.

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        • #5
          Yep, depends on the situation.
          I think its a bit too generalized, too absolute to say "never correct a growl". But it certainly shorter and more to the point that saying "first figure out why the dog is growling and then attend to what preceded the growl."

          Our Breez is just a bitch sometimes, and she growls at the boys for breathing. I'll tell her to knock it off, or if she's in a particularly grumpy mood, I'll send her to another room so her highness can rest undisturbed without having to growl at the minions who dare breathe her air.

          Now, if Breez has a bone - rightfully hers, and another dog gets too close, and she growls at the other dog, I will back her up and correct the other dog.

          If a kid approaches her while she has a bone, she does not mind, in fact she's been known to come lay next to a kid to eat a bone because humans (even the young variety) represent security to her.
          Now, if she DID growl at a kid approaching her while she was eating or enjoying a treat, I would go in to counter condition/desensitization mode and address the *cause* of the growl - that she's not comfortable with kids around her resources.

          So yeah, there is a lot more behind "don't correct the growl."
          Until one has loved an animal, part of one's soul remains unawakened.
          - Anatole France

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          • #6
            goingpostal, i was specifically asking about dog-to-dog growling. sorry i didn't make that clear in my initial post.

            thanks, everybody, for the responses. very interesting!
            [SIGPIC]

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            • #7
              Nevermind.
              Last edited by DPU; 10-10-2011, 11:59 AM.

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              • #8
                Here's another question to add to the mix...how do you explain this to the "not-so-dog savvy" people of the world without it soundling like you are encouraging this behavior? For instance...

                My older dog will growl if another dog gets in his space or starts lunging towards him. Usually I will acknowledge that yes, there is another dog there, and if i think the dog is stable enough I will let them continue approaching (not that we meet them and say hi, sometimes it's just passing them to go to the "dog area"). If I think the dog is not going to let Mick have his space then I will remove him from the situation and we walk away...this almost always happens on leash around our apartment (dogs have to be leashed). Then I get the looks from my neighbors and the comments under their breath about my dog that growls and is "aggressive". Although I have complete control over him and he has never lunged or snapped at anyone or anything. Some people just don't get that their dogs are out of control, I guess.
                sigpic
                "Mom, he's touching me"
                Emily - Mom of Mick (12yo collie/aussie), Rosie (9yo fawn dane) and Keebler (4yo black dane)

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                • #9
                  Another point - the noise itself does not always equal a growl as in a warning/threat. Danes are like many, a vocal breed. Bates and Breez both growl at each other to initiate play. In fact, Bates' "play with me" growl is more ferocious sounding than his "knock it off" growl. But if you look at the body language accompanying the growl, you see it is totally different.

                  So just 'cause it sounds like a growl, doesn't mean it is a growl.
                  Until one has loved an animal, part of one's soul remains unawakened.
                  - Anatole France

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                  • #10
                    ouesi, i completely agree! anybody here who has ever met pea will attest to it. her "talking" sounds every bit as threatening as it would if it was a "real" growl! oftentimes, i have to explain to visitors that when she approaches them with a stuffy in her mouth, she is simply telling them what a great toy she has and asking if they would like to see it. even though it sounds ferocious, it is simply her way of trying to get the visitor to pay attention to HER and nothing else!
                    [SIGPIC]

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                    • #11
                      Mine are all very talk-active. Growls are in IMO a very important part of doggie conversation. And as ouesi already clarified there are definitely a whole array of different growls.

                      In time when you get to know your dogs very well, you can basically translate the growls and their meaning. Especially Danes are known to use growls as a expression of pleasure (purring), invitation to play, just basically talking back, warning etc.

                      So a growl does not equal a growl (as in menacing). In my experience the Danes that do nor sound off at all, are the most dangerous. I have seen many Dane attacks, and they almost all happened when a Dane was just fixating another dog or person, but never when they growled.
                      sigpic
                      With best regards,
                      Jeannette Luca & Leo and now Lilly & Sophie

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                      • #12
                        I'm sitting here with a dane and a lab lying at my feet wrapped up in a pile of hugging dog with Zephyr growling while chewing on Molly's head, but there's nothing menacing about it at all. The two of them put their mouths around each others and while Zephyr has this evil sounding growl, Molly ha this high pitched whine, and when I hear those sounds I know exactly what they're doing, which is playing.
                        When they're outside Zephyr sounds like he's going to eat the labs, but the sound is always followed by a play bow or a zoomie around the yard.
                        Zephyr CGN, RE, TT- crazy harlequin
                        Divine Acres Riddle Me This- regal fawn

                        http://thegrownups.ca/ on life and (not) growing up.

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                        • #13
                          This is all so interesting to me. Which leads me to another question. Can a dog who is playing show his teeth? I will give you an example...
                          My middle dog Mojo will show his teeth and look and sound all vicious when playing with Duke. The play is rough but never to the point where I think they are going to hurt each other. Duke will lay on his back then get up and run around and visa versa... When Duke is tired, he will lay down and mojo will bring over a toy and drop it at his nose and bark and snarl until duke gets back up to play with him. If they are in the middle of playing and I call they both look to me and come to me so they aren't in attack mode or anything. But I just wondered because everyone talks of showing teeth...and boy does my guy Mojo and if you didn't know any better you would think he wanted to kill Duke but that is not the case.
                          Duke can tell the difference between when Mojo is playing and when he is not. Usually if Duke is messing with mojo and he doesn't want to play Duke backs off instantly.
                          So if a growl is not always a growl(warning) what about the other? Just wondering.
                          sigpic
                          Andrea and Alex
                          5 skin kids
                          Doug, AJ, Ryan, Aidan & Zach
                          3 Furbabies
                          Max, Mojo & Duke

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mamajaff3 View Post
                            Can a dog who is playing show his teeth?
                            Simple answer is YES! These are ALL PLAY photos!



                            sigpic

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                            • #15
                              Moni is correct and her pics are a great example. Dogs show teeth during play and snarl. But notice that the fang is always open and the eyes are too. A dog ready to seriously attack is warning with a closed snout baring teeth and "slit" eyes.
                              sigpic
                              With best regards,
                              Jeannette Luca & Leo and now Lilly & Sophie

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