Electronic training collars

[WeLoveOur7Dogs]

For anyone who is intersted, here is a well written article addressing the proper introduction and use of electronic training equipment. It very clearly outlines how dogs think and learn as well as how and why the E-collar works. A long read, but a pretty good one. The only thing I would add to it is for the PR end of the training, I would use a favorite toy or treat and I do all early training on leash to minimize the dog's confusion and to be able to help the dog better.
Enjoy!

E-collars early use and conditioning.
By Wally "LCK" Hendricks
This article is intended to help new and experienced dog owners alike understand the proper use of the electronic training collar more commonly known as the shock collar.
The name shock or shocking collar is an unfortunate name for this device as it tends to have a very negative connotation from the onset. Although electricity does activate the stimulation witch the dog feels it does not deliver an electric shock to the dog. The e-collar does however deliver a series of impulses which vary in levels of intensity. This stimulation is delivered in a series of "pricking" sensations which can be increased or decreased by the trainer. The higher the frequency, the faster the pulse or "pricks" are delivered creating a higher level of stimulus. It is basically like allowing a car to idle (low intensity) or revving the engine (higher intensity). It is very common in the dog world to hear people voice very strong objections to the use of the "shock collar" and almost everyone has a story about how a dog was
ruined by their use. It is true, many a decent dog has been miss handled by the human running the controls of an e-collar. The training collar itself will not ruin a dog if used properly. For every person who bemoans the use of an e-collar there are many knowledgeable and experienced dog owners and trainers amateur and professionals alike who have learned to rely heavily on their use. This article is intended to dispel some of the myth and fear surrounding the use of the e-collar and hopefully help the reader gain an understanding of the proper way to introduce and train a dog with one.
Before we start into the proper use of the collar itself it will be necessary to have a basic understanding of how a dog learns. Dogs are for the most part a very easy and simple animal to train. They have an uncanny ability to behave in such a way that benefits them. This is a trait which has insured their survival and has allowed our four legged friends to weave themselves into our lives. Dogs learn from association.
This can come from negative reinforcement and positive reinforcement. In order for a dog to be trained in the true sense of the word they need to be exposed to both in order for them to make the appropriate association and then learn to exhibit the correct behavior in order to avoid the negative reinforcement and receive the positive reinforcement. I call it profit and loss. Dogs can do the math exceptionally fast and will always, if given the proper chance, choose the positive reinforcement path. Most animal behaviorists agree that a dog makes an association in less than a
second’s time and can retain the lesson learned from that seemingly instantaneous association for their entire lives. Knowing this gives us as trainers the advantage.
The use of the electronic training collar has enabled us to deliver an immediate correction which falls well within that less than one second window in which a dog can make an association or "learn".
So, where do we start? How do we utilize this tool so that we can maximize our training and success? The answer is in how we introduce the dog to the collar and how we teach the dog to "turn it off". The first thing is to introduce the dog to the collar. Most collar manufacturers should recommend that the dog be allowed to wear the collar for several outings before it is even turned on. The dog needs to get used to it being on while experiencing positive activities. This is helping the dog to associate the collar with positive activity and if given this chance the dog will accept the collar as a good thing. Note. DO NOT leave the collar on the dog’s neck for more than 6 to 8 hours at a time. They DO rub sores on the neck and can be harmful. They are intended to be worn on outings or training sessions and then be taken off.
The collar needs to be snug and worn as close to the lower jaw as possible or where the jaw meets the throat area. The prongs need to be long enough to make contact with the skin and it usually takes a little time with the dog wearing it for the prongs to work through the hair and make contact with the skin.
After the initial introduction to the collar is completed it is time to learn the dog’s sensitivity level. Some dogs respond to the lowest possible level of stimulation and others need a higher level. All dogs are different in this area. Put the activated collar on the dog and either have him/her in a confined area or on a leash and starting at the lowest setting push the button. You are looking for the slightest reaction. This is usually a twitching of the ears or a sideways turn of the head or perhaps a startled
expression. You are not looking for a pain response. Slowly go up through the levels until you see these signals in the dog’s body language. When you find this level you have found the level of intensity that this particular dog can learn with.
Now it's time to train. It is time to allow the dog to learn that it can turn the uncomfortable twitching sensation off. This is accomplished most easily by teaching the dog to come. Most dogs if properly bonded with you will come to you if startled or confused. With the button being pushed and the dog receiving a "negative" stimulation, call him to you. The very instant the dog starts to come your way let off of the button. If the dog stops and turns away from you push the button and repeat the command. If the dog turns towards you turn it off. Most, if not all of the dogs I
have started this way learn very quickly that by coming towards me they have turned off the "prickling" sensation. The dog is then petted and praised for coming.
This is how you introduce the negative and positive reinforcement for the dog to learn from. The real secret here is you are allowing the dog to figure it out and choose the positive path. You are accomplishing two major training objectives together. One, you are teaching the dog to come when called but probably more importantly, you are teaching the dog how to turn off the negative reinforcement or in other words how to turn off the e-collar.
This is a very relaxed and essentially non threatening way for a dog to learn. If we were to crank the collar on a high level which causes the dog to scream in pain the dog simply cannot learn. Dogs DO NOT learn well when in pain. If given the chance to choose they will choose the positive and learn how to avoid the negative and this lesson will last for the life of the dog.
Once the dog has "learned" how to turn the collar off you can introduce other disciplines in the training regimen such as sit, stay, heel, off etc. Keep in mind that you are taking the dog through its basic obedience but again more importantly you are conditioning the dog to comply with the collars negative stimulation. If properly introduced to the collar in the first place very few if any dogs will associate the collar itself with the prickling sensation and will not become what is commonly referred to as becoming collar wise.
The e-collar should be put on the dog who is in training EVERY time the dog is allowed out of the kennel and commands are going to be given. Remember these are training collars and the dog is in training. If the dog is allowed to sometimes wear the collar and other times commands are given without the collar some dogs will become collar wise and only mind when the collar is on. This is not good and can cause us to OVER correct when we should not have to if we would have put the collar on every time out. Well trained and finished dogs do not need the collar, but they are trained dogs and we are talking about dogs who are in training.
It is my hope that by taking a little extra time in doing your yard work and obedience training you can establish a relationship and environment for your dog to be successful in its training. The proper early use of an e-collar that will pave the way for more advanced training in the future through the use of the electronic training collar. I hope to continue with this article through the advanced stages of training.

[Chul3l3ies1126]

Love it Moni... all I have to say is Thank You... thank you. You know why <3
Nessa

[Dickie Best]

Love it Moni... all I have to say is Thank You... thank you. You know why <3
Nessa

Me to !!

[DPU]

Here is the balance.

From Say No to Shock

Shock Collars are euphemistically called Electronic or E-collars or Remote Training Collars. Some pet owners and novice trainers train with shock collars because they are not aware of what they can accomplish with pain-free methods or of the harm they may be doing to their dogs by shocking them.

If a trainer claims to be a positive trainer who uses E collars that don't hurt, to get the dog's attention and to motivate the dog, my question is, if it doesn't hurt, why should the collar get the dog's attention or compliance any more than a clicker, your verbal command, or a hand touch?

"Shock is not training - in the vast majority of cases it meets the criteria for abuse" says Dr. Karen Overall.

"We don't have to hurt dogs to train them." -- Becky Schultz

If you are a hunter and you want to train with non painful methods, check out this book available from Amazon.com:

POSITIVE GUN DOGS - CLICKER TRAINING FOR SPORTING BREEDS
by Jim Barry, Mary Emmen, & Susan Smith
If you'd like to learn to train your dog in a systematic, efficient manner, with force-free methods that you'll both enjoy, then this book is right for you!

If you are a pet owner with an unruly dog, considering a shock collar, please take your dog through a basic reward based obedience training program first. Later if you still need extra help, you may want to check out this alternative:

The MannersMinder Dog Training System provides a solution for many unruly behavior problems that is both effective and painless-it is available from several internet sources.

A report of my shock collar self-test: By Cathy Toft

I used a Dogtra 200 NCP Gold. It has a rheostat dial. I used the back of my arm so that the skin wouldn't be too sensitive, such as a dog's skin might not be. I could feel nothing when the dial was at zero, which makes sense as one way to turn it "off". I had to work my courage up for a long time to do this test. I considered the statement that the shock collar at low levels feels like a tickle or a tap, so I first tried about a 5 out of 100 (max). I felt nothing. I then set the dial higher in small increments.

I could feel nothing until the setting of 20. Then I felt a sharp pain, like being stuck with a hot needle. There was a definite feeling of heat. The pain was sharp, a point sensation. It did not feel pleasant, and it did not feel neutral. It felt absolutely nothing like a "tap" as in a tap on the shoulder, which would be a blunt, non-painful sensation. Importantly, at the lowest level that I could detect the stimulus, I perceived the feeling as pain and not as another kind of physical sensation.

I went higher on the rheostat and got up to 40 before I couldn't make myself go any higher. At that point, the sharpness of the feeling was greater and the sense of heat was greater. But by 40 there was also a feeling of electrical current. I got the familiar buzzing feeling that you might remember if you've ever touched a live wire. In other words, I definitely perceived the feeling as shock, not tap or a tickle. My skin started to tingle between the live electrode point and the ground point. Clearly a current was traveling between the two points on the shock collar, and it seemed to be traveling not only on the skin but in the muscle. I suspect it radiates out in an electromagnetic field pattern between the two points. Interestingly, I did not know which point was which on the Dogtra, as the two points appear the same, until I applied the shock to myself. In the Tritronics model, the ground point is black and the live point is colored according to the level of intensity of the shock each point type (5 in all) delivers..

The shock collar users state that the feeling is not one of a shock in the "new generation" collars, but when asked, no one could explain the physics behind how the collars actually work if that were the case. They also state that the feeling is neutral and not painful, again, without explaining how the shock collars work to convince the dog to change its behavior. Although one can argue that I do not know how the shock collar feels to a dog, I still ask shock collar users to explain how a shock collar works to change a dog's behavior, if it does not work by positive punishment and negative reinforcement.

[3XDaneMom]

Super artical Moni.

Used properly these are great training aids. You and your pack are the proof. I am glad your here to help out those who do wish to use the tool and offer sound advice and support. I also like when you point out when the collar would or would not be a good fit for a dog/handler team.

You deserve a cookie.

[WeLoveOur7Dogs]

Here is the balance.

From Say No to Shock

Shock Collars are euphemistically called Electronic or E-collars or Remote Training Collars. Some pet owners and novice trainers train with shock collars because they are not aware of what they can accomplish with pain-free methods or of the harm they may be doing to their dogs by shocking them.

If a trainer claims to be a positive trainer who uses E collars that don't hurt, to get the dog's attention and to motivate the dog, my question is, if it doesn't hurt, why should the collar get the dog's attention or compliance any more than a clicker, your verbal command, or a hand touch?

"Shock is not training - in the vast majority of cases it meets the criteria for abuse" says Dr. Karen Overall.

"We don't have to hurt dogs to train them." -- Becky Schultz

If you are a hunter and you want to train with non painful methods, check out this book available from Amazon.com:

POSITIVE GUN DOGS - CLICKER TRAINING FOR SPORTING BREEDS
by Jim Barry, Mary Emmen, & Susan Smith
If you'd like to learn to train your dog in a systematic, efficient manner, with force-free methods that you'll both enjoy, then this book is right for you!

If you are a pet owner with an unruly dog, considering a shock collar, please take your dog through a basic reward based obedience training program first. Later if you still need extra help, you may want to check out this alternative:

The MannersMinder Dog Training System provides a solution for many unruly behavior problems that is both effective and painless-it is available from several internet sources.

A report of my shock collar self-test: By Cathy Toft

I used a Dogtra 200 NCP Gold. It has a rheostat dial. I used the back of my arm so that the skin wouldn't be too sensitive, such as a dog's skin might not be. I could feel nothing when the dial was at zero, which makes sense as one way to turn it "off". I had to work my courage up for a long time to do this test. I considered the statement that the shock collar at low levels feels like a tickle or a tap, so I first tried about a 5 out of 100 (max). I felt nothing. I then set the dial higher in small increments.

I could feel nothing until the setting of 20. Then I felt a sharp pain, like being stuck with a hot needle. There was a definite feeling of heat. The pain was sharp, a point sensation. It did not feel pleasant, and it did not feel neutral. It felt absolutely nothing like a "tap" as in a tap on the shoulder, which would be a blunt, non-painful sensation. Importantly, at the lowest level that I could detect the stimulus, I perceived the feeling as pain and not as another kind of physical sensation.

I went higher on the rheostat and got up to 40 before I couldn't make myself go any higher. At that point, the sharpness of the feeling was greater and the sense of heat was greater. But by 40 there was also a feeling of electrical current. I got the familiar buzzing feeling that you might remember if you've ever touched a live wire. In other words, I definitely perceived the feeling as shock, not tap or a tickle. My skin started to tingle between the live electrode point and the ground point. Clearly a current was traveling between the two points on the shock collar, and it seemed to be traveling not only on the skin but in the muscle. I suspect it radiates out in an electromagnetic field pattern between the two points. Interestingly, I did not know which point was which on the Dogtra, as the two points appear the same, until I applied the shock to myself. In the Tritronics model, the ground point is black and the live point is colored according to the level of intensity of the shock each point type (5 in all) delivers..

The shock collar users state that the feeling is not one of a shock in the "new generation" collars, but when asked, no one could explain the physics behind how the collars actually work if that were the case. They also state that the feeling is neutral and not painful, again, without explaining how the shock collars work to convince the dog to change its behavior. Although one can argue that I do not know how the shock collar feels to a dog, I still ask shock collar users to explain how a shock collar works to change a dog's behavior, if it does not work by positive punishment and negative reinforcement.

And once again, you haven't answered my question-

Have YOU felt what the stim feels like? From a quality collar?

[DPU]

And once again, you haven't answered my question-

Have YOU felt what the stim feels like? From a quality collar?

Of course I have and in past post. Go and look. Based on your past posting you most likely will twist "quality". The point has never been my "feel" but what it is intended for the dog to "feel", hence the gauges to rachet it up. Now why don't you explain how the collar works and why it works and reference Learning Theory so we all can have a point of reference. I keep asking this and don't get any response, only get sidetracking.

[WeLoveOur7Dogs]

The point has never been my "feel" but what it is intended for the dog to "feel".

Yes it is the point. You keep saying it's painful. I'm asking how do you know it's painful, or what it feels like. Your past post said you were a past user, not that you had actually felt what the stim feels like for yourself.
And yes, quality matters. A cheap, crappy collar is not consistent, the levels jump way too much, etc. You are the one who twists things, just because YOU don't like them.

Your textbook jargen is not useful to the average dog owner. Average people want results n a reasonable amount of time with a tool that isn't too time consuming or confusing to use.

This thread is for people who WANT to find out more about the electronic collar. That is why I posted the article - NOT to argue with you about it. Feel free to start your own thread David, maybe about how evil they are...

[Greenmagick]

g

I admit Moni, honestly, I am curious as to how you define an electronic collar working for you. I dont mean this to be snarky or to beat a dead horse.

If it is attention getting only, it wouldnt increase or decrease a behavior...and in many cases would end up being the cue itself. But from the way you described using them, I cant see how that fits?

The way I am most familiar with them is as positive punishment. The dog does not respond or responds incorrectly and is stimmed. The stim has to be strong enough to make a negative impression so that the behavior decreases.

The other way I know of them being used is as negative reinforcement. A stim is given, then the cue and the stim continues or is done repeatedly until the dog responds. Again, the stim would have to be strong enough to change the current behavior and then by letting up reinforces the cued behavior.

In both these uses, the common thing is the stim has to be strong enough to get the desired reaction. In most cases that is going to be light pain...or at least a pretty unpleasant sensation.

If the stim was liked it would cause the opposite affect and reinforce the behavior you did not want, causing it to increase.

Again, not saying ecollars are evil....not saying they are torture devices. I am honestly curious as to what your use of them is if it doesnt fit into the above. The trainers I know who have used them (and some I am very good friends with BTW) all say they work because the dog works to avoid the stim.

[WeLoveOur7Dogs]

I admit Moni, honestly, I am curious as to how you define an electronic collar working for you. I dont mean this to be snarky or to beat a dead horse.

If it is attention getting only, it wouldnt increase or decrease a behavior...and in many cases would end up being the cue itself. But from the way you described using them, I cant see how that fits?

The way I am most familiar with them is as positive punishment. The dog does not respond or responds incorrectly and is stimmed. The stim has to be strong enough to make a negative impression so that the behavior decreases.

The other way I know of them being used is as negative reinforcement. A stim is given, then the cue and the stim continues or is done repeatedly until the dog responds. Again, the stim would have to be strong enough to change the current behavior and then by letting up reinforces the cued behavior.

In both these uses, the common thing is the stim has to be strong enough to get the desired reaction. In most cases that is going to be light pain...or at least a pretty unpleasant sensation.

If the stim was liked it would cause the opposite affect and reinforce the behavior you did not want, causing it to increase.

Again, not saying ecollars are evil....not saying they are torture devices. I am honestly curious as to what your use of them is if it doesnt fit into the above. The trainers I know who have used them (and some I am very good friends with BTW) all say they work because the dog works to avoid the stim.

The way it works for me is that they learn to shut the collar off. Just like described in the article I posted. That's why I posted it. I think it explains PERFECTLY how I use the collar. The stim level doesn't have to be painful, it's more annoying than anything, and they learn that by doing the right thing, or being in the correct place, the collar shuts off. Simple as that. It doesn't have to hurt them to decrease the behavior.

[Greenmagick]

The way it works for me is that they learn to shut the collar off. Just like described in the article I posted. That's why I posted it. I think it explains PERFECTLY how I use the collar. The stim level doesn't have to be painful, it's more annoying than anything, and they learn that by doing the right thing, or being in the correct place, the collar shuts off. Simple as that. It doesn't have to hurt them to decrease the behavior.

ok, so basically we are agreeing I guess? It is something unpleasant enough (not necessarily painful) that causes the dog to stop what it is doing. Its being used as negative reinforcement.
negative reinforcement definition
Function: n
: psychological reinforcement by removal of an unpleasant stimulus when a desired response occurs

[GraceTW22]

I was trying to look through and find a comparison from the level of electricity transmitted by a hot wire fence versus an e-collar. Having felt both, the e-collar was less powerful by a significant amount, but I could not find any reference to the exact amount of energy transmitted on each setting. It is also rather late though, I could be missing it. Should our fences be particularly strong or collars particularly weak, please feel free to correct me, but I will say that we use hot wire on the top of the fence to teach the horses not to lean on the fence or fight with the other horses on the other side. I have been in a situation that sent me grabbing for something on several occasions and thus grabbed the hotwire. It was painful enough to make me deliver a choice word at a reasonable but not offensive volume, and when I watch the horses hit it, it generally just startles them, sends them scooting, and they eye the fence suspiciously for a while. The dog collar on the end was more comparable to getting shocked by something in the winter when there's a static buildup. Less intense but still makes you jump. On both cases, I would say there's a degree of pain, but it's instantaneous, startling, and mild, and not nearly as bad as stubbing your toe, or what they must be doing to themselves playing. Collars probably also deliver a degree of pain when the leash is taut, since that is a sensitive area. However, it's all tolerable, minor, and over quickly. I would personally want to go with the positive methods first and give them a good shot, but were I in a situation where I felt that I really needed a reliable negative reinforcement, I wouldn't hesitate on the basis of causing the dog unreasonable pain. Surely not near the top of my list of things to try in correcting a behavior, but I promise that it's closer to shocking yourself on a railing than the electric chair.

ETA: I don't know that I would be using it in the situation of teaching the dog to turn it off. I suppose that's similar to riding a horse, in which you apply pressure of some sort and then release it when the desired reaction occurs, since you can't be cooing and feeing treats the whole time, but I've personally found the e-collar to be more useful for correcting a behavior that they won't do in front of you or one that requires the fear of god to be put into them like car chasing or something like that.

[DPU]

The way it works for me is that they learn to shut the collar off. Just like described in the article I posted. That's why I posted it. I think it explains PERFECTLY how I use the collar. The stim level doesn't have to be painful, it's more annoying than anything, and they learn that by doing the right thing, or being in the correct place, the collar shuts off. Simple as that. It doesn't have to hurt them to decrease the behavior.

You are describing Negative Reinforcement using a low voltage stimulus and that is how it was used in its origin. No amount of cloaking is going to disguise what the collar is, an aversive, a punisher, a deliverer of pain. I don't know why you can't say those words but I chalk it up to the Inattentive Blindness (google this), seeing what you only want to see. No one can deny given the current design of the device to be racheted up, the dog owner is hard pressed to control their impulsives and restrain their emotions and are going to use it as Punishment. And that is just being a normal human.

Learning Theory is not hard to grasp but it is very helpful in understanding what you are doing and why the dog learns. Reading books by S.Clothier, Patricia McConnel, CM, Gradin, Mech, and Paul owens give you a deep understanding of the dog, its emotions, and how the dog's brain works.

As I stated, I don't care if you use it or don't use or how you use it. I posted my link in order to give a balanced view and for education.

[ouesi]

From http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/#Learning (a great overview of learning theory).

Something Good can start or be presented, so behavior increases = Positive Reinforcement (R+)
Something Good can end or be taken away, so behavior decreases = Negative Punishment (P-)
Something Bad can start or be presented, so behavior decreases = Positive Punishment (P+)
Something Bad can end or be taken away, so behavior increases = Negative Reinforcement (R-)

The way it works for me is that they learn to shut the collar off.

That is R-. The behavior is reinforced because something unpleasant is removed when the dog performs the correct behavior. By definition that makes the collar an aversive. Something the dog works to avoid. It works because the dog does not like the stim. If the dog didn't mind the stim, this method would not work. That is all *I* personally would like for people to admit about the collars. The stim is not a tickle, its not a tap, its not a friendly gesture, the dog does not like it, that is what the whole system of training is based on.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there is anything inherently wrong with R-, P+ that is one whole half of learning theory, and a valuable one. Even so-called "Positive" trainers (a misnomer itself) use R-. When they tell you to "make like a tree" when the dog pulls, that is R-, the unpleasant sensation will be removed when the dog turns to you and stops pulling.

But I'm a stickler for honesty, and it bugs me to no end to see manufacturers and "sit means sit" types telling me the stim is a tickle. Its not. If if were, the dog would come back for more like Lunar does when I scratch his butt. The dog works to AVOID the stim ergo, it must not be very pleasant eh?

And for owners themselves, I do think it is important to understand WHY your dog is learning. Know what you're doing and why. It makes you a more informed trainer (and less likely to be suckered by unscrupulous trainers), and in many ways expands your toolbox. For example, I know that with my guys I can have longer training sessions and more eager learners using R+, so I get really creative with different rewards. For behaviors I'm trying to stop, I tend more towards R-/P+. Like countersurfing is cured with a "no" followed by a body block out of the kitchen. (P+) With Lunar's guarding we used a combination of R+ and desensitization to humans near his food, because we knew that any direct confrontation would have escalated the guarding, (and even I know better than to try and go head to head with a hungry 140# dane with no respect for humans).

Know what you're doing and why. That's all.

[DPU]

That is R-. The behavior is reinforced because something unpleasant is removed when the dog performs the correct behavior. By definition that makes the collar an aversive. Something the dog works to avoid. It works because the dog does not like the stim. If the dog didn't mind the stim, this method would not work. That is all *I* personally would like for people to admit about the collars. The stim is not a tickle, its not a tap, its not a friendly gesture, the dog does not like it, that is what the whole system of training is based on.

If you read Moni's referenced article, the author says the same thing and uses "textbook jargon" but softens the R- by saying using PR when you get compliance and in the same trial. IMO, trials should only use one quadrant at a time so the consequences are most effective. In a separate trial, if you get compliance without stimming the dog, then the PR quadrant should be used. Here's a quote from the author and following his thinking, only using PR is the most profitable way to go.

"to avoid the negative reinforcement and receive the positive reinforcement. I call it profit and loss. Dogs can do the math exceptionally fast and will always, if given the proper chance, choose the positive reinforcement path."