Alpha rolling?

[arrie]

I recently purchased a book on puppy training just to get some pointers before bring my little girl home. The book very much focuses on positive reinforcement so I was a bit surprised to see a section encouraging what I believe is known as alpha rolling.

The book stated that it is important to know wether you are dealing with a submissive or dominate puppy in order to choose the correct training methods for the puppy. It then stated to lay the puppy on its side and observe how he/she reacted to determine where the puppy viewed itself in the pack order. A dominate puppy would struggle and a submissive puppy would not.

Now I must admit that I do not know very much about alpha rolling other than that it can greatly distress the dog and is generally discouraged. Is this the procedure known as alpha rolling or is this something else entirely?

If this is not alpha rolling what are your opinions on the procedure listed in the book?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Alexandra

[mfey]

I am by no means an expert on this. It seems that this is just asking you to lie the dog down to assess it's personality/demeanor. An alpha roll is a corrective measure to force the dog to submit to you.

[ownedby3danes]

When all of mine were pups I would turn them gently on their side, then their backs to get them use to being handled and put in odd positions (good for nail cutting, needing to examine something, etc. . . . ) Taylor HATED IT, would scream and throw a tantrum every time, until she was about 7 months old and decided she wasn't going to win. Kaiser, my merle dane, was a pro - went to it and has always been a "whatever mom wants" kinda guy, Bishop was too old when I got him, but we still worked with him laying politely on his side. And when Ronin was a pup at 8 weeks I did the same with him . .. he squirmed a bit, but after exercise was always easier.

I agree that "alpha rolling" is used as a means of correction. What the book wants you to do is just introduce it being on its back. Chances are that your dane pup wont care. Our mutt dog that cared is a bulldog/shep. mix and she is ummmmm. . . fiesty is the best word !!!

[MyDaneBaby]

Not an alpha roll.

It's important when you get your pup to get them used to tons of handling. Daily I handle every part of their bodies, while they're laying down, side or back. I check their ears, check their teeth, handle each toe individually, inbetween their toes top & bottom, clean eyes, rub my hands over their whole bodies etc.

It is super important for them to be handleable and having good experiences from an early age will help them to become so. This also helps you to feel anything that seems off before it's visibly different.

[Carolyn]

Its too bad alpha rolling has such a negative connotation to it.

What that book is describing is exactly what I tell my puppies buyers to do at least a couple time a week. This isnt meant to be a harsh or scary exercise to do to your pup or to do when the pup is highly active.
It is an exercise that when started young puts the the puppy in a very submissive position by the owner and the puppy needs to be receptive to this position. It will also give the breeders and owners an idea of the more assertive puppies. The act of putting the puppy on its side and than gently rolling it over onto its back (holding it there for 10 seconds while petting and talking to the pup) and the pack leader kneeling over the submissive (or relenting) pup is all part of the big picture of teaching this pup from early on where his place is in his family.
It correlates with obedience training, patient but firm discipline, guidlines lines, structure and love.

[Mongo]

I am curious as to what book this is and when it was published.
Alpha roll was popularized by the Monks of New Skeet in their first book, but it is not included in later additions and I don't think they even recommend the practice anymore.

Anyway, ANYTHING that encourages you to forcefully overpower a dog is generally a bad mistake, especially if your dog is likely to get bigger and stronger than you.

Teaching a pup to enjoy body handling, restraint and general wallering around is about TRUST and practice and fun.
I don't buy into the whole dominance thing.
And using force isn't training.
I took our Dane puppy's collar off one day when I saw family members using it to drag him back or in or whatever instead of taking 15 extra seconds to let him respond (or encourage him to respnd) to a command.
The pup needed to learn to communicate because the day was coming when he would be too big to be dragged around by the collar. It worked well.

[arrie]

I am curious as to what book this is and when it was published.

The book is from a series called the Kennel club positive training series and is the puppy training edition. Kennel club books also has a great dane book that I found very thorough. This book was published in 2003.

Thank everyone for the comments and information. I have read so many negative opinions about alpha rolling and asserting dominance that I wanted to check before doing anything.

Here is a direct quote from the book "to find out whether you have a dominant puppy, a submissive puppy or one that's somewhere in between, you will need to perform the following simple test. Gently lay the puppy on his side and observe how he accepts this awkward position"

Thanks again for all of the opinions. I just want to make sure to do the right thing for this puppy. Anglefly

[mp]

Well, it's one of those things that sound like it should work!

My girl is very dominant and bossy, but was beautifully raised from earlliest puppyhood and loves to be handled in the manner you describe! Otherwise, she's not the least bit submissive!

mp

[Wings]

Its too bad alpha rolling has such a negative connotation to it.

What that book is describing is exactly what I tell my puppies buyers to do at least a couple time a week. This isnt meant to be a harsh or scary exercise to do to your pup or to do when the pup is highly active.
It is an exercise that when started young puts the the puppy in a very submissive position by the owner and the puppy needs to be receptive to this position. It will also give the breeders and owners an idea of the more assertive puppies. The act of putting the puppy on its side and than gently rolling it over onto its back (holding it there for 10 seconds while petting and talking to the pup) and the pack leader kneeling over the submissive (or relenting) pup is all part of the big picture of teaching this pup from early on where his place is in his family.
It correlates with obedience training, patient but firm discipline, guidlines lines, structure and love.

Nice to see there are people with the same understanding.