Thoughts and Suggestions

[Susanne]

I have not gotten use to this new forum, so I hope I'm doing it right. But anyway, I have some concerns. My local city and surrounding area is talking about a mandatory spay and neuter. After many hours and discussing what should or maybe ought to happen in order to help with the overpopulation. Here are some things that was suggested. The city is trying to get some ideas or suggestions from our local allbreed club and others if this should ever be proposed. Mainly because 183 dogs were rescued this past week. The majority were small dogs and puppies and the city has really opened there eyes to the cause of overpopluation.

1# Puppies and kittens banned from sell in any retailer, wholesaler or pet stores. This will cut down on puppy millers.

2# There should be a mandatory spay and neuter on all pets. This will help with "OH I’m sorry my dog just had to have a litter." or " Rover jumped the fence and couldn’t help himself" with the exception that for medical reasons and there will be a yearly fee for any intacted animals.

3# Any one that sells or breeds should have a breeding license as a Professional Breeder.
This will eliminate the serious one to the ones "I just wanted to make a little money." There is a question about who would be classified as a professional.

4# Every Dog or Bitch for breeding should have a permit at additional fee.
Puppy miller wants to make money not lose it.

5# Every Dog or Bitch needs to be tattooed or micro chipped.
Again, same as #4

6# Every Dog or Bitch to be DNA
To help identify the dog or bitch with microchip or tattoo.

7# Every Dog or Bitch should be tested OFA within it standard
To help eliminate BYBers and Puppy millers

8# Every Dog or Bitch should not be breed till a certain age and pass any and all health test. Any dogs breed before, will be fined.

This is just a few that was mentioned, I hope I didn't leave any thing out, but I'm sure I have. Your comments and suggestions are very much welcome. If we all get together and work with our city, town, or state. We can help it out for the better for all breeds and ours.

[Mongo]

Ummmmmm.
Am I to understand you guys SUPPORT these ideas?

And the phantom "puppymiller" boogeyman that this legislation is supposed to ferret out?
RARE.

And the poor unwanted small breed adults and puppies you mentioned?
Have you truely investigated how much money will be made from those dogs?
(They get will get vetted by a vet that write off his efforts as a tax deduction to rescue- and the groups average $250 + for each highly desireable small breed. so how much money are we talking?? money that will help other dogs in need- I hope.)
Oddly, the number of cats and lab mixes euthanized daily didn't catch anyone attention? Perhaps they know that the owners of these animals are hard to prosecute?

I suggest you and your group take a HARD look at existing legislation around the country and exactly how it was supposed to benefit dogs, and exactly how it fails to do so.

The boogeyman isn't some faceless far away diabolical sadist.
The boogeyman is everyone who ever ran out an got an animal they have no idea how to take care of. Legislation, in an effort to "protect" animals only manages to remove them from the very people who can.

I especially LOVE extra fees to breed. As if rich people are somehow smarter than those with less income. LOL

Randa

[Susanne]

<Ummmmmm.
Am I to understand you guys SUPPORT these ideas?>

I don't support any group other than my all breed. It has been mentioned and talked about and what to do or what ought to happen. Rather than the city to take everything in its own hands and do what it want to do so they are asking for suggestions and I'm sure it will soon have a proposal for a mandatory spay and neuter in my city. We are trying to figure out how to please everyone but not step on any toes, but everyone is not going to be satisfied.

Its coming and it coming soon.

<<And the poor unwanted small breed adults and puppies you mentioned?
Have you truely investigated how much money will be made from those dogs?
(They get will get vetted by a vet that write off his efforts as a tax deduction to rescue- and the groups average $250 + for each highly desireable small breed. so how much money are we talking?? money that will help other dogs in need- I hope.)>>

I don't know anything other than that these babies were rescued last week by the Middle Georgia Human Society and are being evaluated and taken into foster homes to be adopted later. Maybe they will consider using any monies from this to help others in need. It to early to tell what is going to happen.

<<Oddly, the number of cats and lab mixes euthanized daily didn't catch anyone attention? Perhaps they know that the owners of these animals are hard to prosecute>>

All the more reason for spay and neuter for the unwanted animals being born every year because of stupid, ignorant and uneducated people out there. You have to start somewhere to get to the root of the problem.

[Danewillow]

I know I won't gain any popularity with this but I'm for mandatory spay/neuter. The majority of dogs in shelters come from casual breedings. There won't be any cute puppies in a box in the Wal-Mart parking lot for people to pick up on a whim. If a "professional" breeder can't afford the additional fee to keep their animals intact, can they really afford to breed? Most fees I've seen proposed weren't astronomically high. Even $200 per animal doesn't seem that much compared to the cost of ultrasounds and a c-section.

The only problem I see with those rules is #6, DNA testing. If a community decides to enact BSL, they have all our dogs' DNA on file and know who owns what breed. When they were proposing banning pits and other breeds in MN (with no grandfathering) we were planning on declaring our Staffy Bull an oversized Chihuahua. Lucky for him, it didn't pass.

Julie

[saharadane]

The majority of reputable breeders would probably not be able to qualify for a breeding permit. Most breeders don't have commercial quality kennel/breeding facilities. They probably would not pass "home inspections" when pups are raised inside the house.

Commercial kennels and puppy mills would be able to pass. We have a Dane + other breed commercial puppy mill in our area that would pass because they are licensed by the agricultural department.

People think the price of puppies is high now. Wait until the cost of keeping intact dogs every year is factored into the price.

Mandatory spay/neuter sounds good on the surface. But, it will not benefit the puppy buying public. The majority of animals in shelters are mixed breed dogs. The producers of these animals are not going to spay or neuter their dogs even with a law.

The true intention of spay/neuter laws is to eliminate pet ownership. This is the agenda of the PETA orgnization.

* edited for spelling

[jeann1230]

Spay/Neuter issue

Hi,

this spay/neuter issue is really weird to me. Ok, I am blond, but I am also German. In Germany pets are only neutered or spayed for medical issues as fake pregnanicies or prostata problems etc. Most all our pets (except cats, because they run around free here and cannot be controlled) are not spayed or neutered.

We have some BYB but not many. But here everybody pays attention to their dogs and there are hardly any accident puppies. So why is it such a great issue in the states?

Greetings Jeannette

[Mongo]

The problem isn't isn't spay/neuter.
The problem is the public.

You might look VERY hard at the details of the local case and what exactly happened.
The chances are good that there ARE laws to punish this breeder and watch exactly WHY that is so unlikely. (Usually, they sign dogs over to avoid prosecution- Changing THAT practice would shift focus from "help poor babies in need" to "Put neglectful dog owners in JAIL" and stop punishing the rest of us!!!)

And for the record, the HS in Wisconson just BOUGHT (for real money) a large commercial kennel of over 1100 dogs to "rescue the dogs" that WILL be adopted out at OVER $200 a piece.
Odd- if there are so many unwanted dogs around...why is the HS BUYING OUT BREEDERS WHO WANT TO RETIRE?????
(The huge commercial kennel is thrilled the dogs will be placed in loving homes, btw.)

http://thebark.typepad.com/barking/

Follow the link in the text to the Wisconsin HS.

Be very very careful. Dog laws are funny things.

If your club really wants to do something start FREE puppy training classes at a public park and think of ways to talk local landlords into allowing dogs within certain terms. Adressing THOSE two issues would make a huge dent in unwanted dogs.

Randa

[Mongo]

Jeanette- I lived in Germany for three years.
Things are VERY different here. Our population is HUGE and dog ownership is NOT part of our culture, therefore managing dogs is NOT something most people grow up seeing.
As an example, I am the first dog owner in three generations of my mothers family and the fact the dog is allowed in the house is also commented on.

Poor management, large population and almost ZERO support for dog owners (it is nearly impossible to rent a home in America if you own a dog) have left dogs is bad circumstances.
The myth WAS that unwanted dogs were caused by overpopulation, so spay neueter became the norm. But that has been the common practice here for 20 years and dogs are still unwanted because ignorance, failure to train are still common practices.

That's why SOME think that spay neuter is still the issue but some disagree.
LOL Here, the idea that an intact dog can be controlled at all is considered a myth outside working dog circles, generally professional trainers themselves.

Randa

[Mommy to Zeus]

Maybe my line of thinking is off here, but why not try FREE spays and neuters first to see if that helps? Lots of people just don't want to pay to have it done. I've seen it firsthand.

[jeann1230]

@ Randa

Thanks for replying so quickly. I lived quite some years in the States. But I was too busy raising our children to own dogs there. Plus my husband was in the military and we had to move around a lot (seven times over the atlantic) so I felt it was no room and time for a dog back then. So I really never confronted the issue of dog ownership in the States.

I grew up with dogs in my family. My parents had several St. Bernands (beethovens) when I was a child, boxers and setters. All our dogs lived with us in the house. I learned as a child, first you take care of your dog than yourself. Our dogs layed on the couch, my St. Bernand girl Terry shared my bed (very welcomed in cold winter nights in a drafty castle, and yes very limited heating :-)).

I don't know dogs just have been and now are again a way of life. We always had multiple dogs in the family bitches and boys intact. There was never an accident. We separated the girls in heat. The boys did not try to fool around because they knew better. And even my boys know better than to act up when the neighbor's bitch is in heat. They might sniff wistfully the air or where she peed, but thats it.

Greetings Jeannette

[gr8danlvr1]

Spay/nueter laws are a funny thing. The problem isn't the idea itself so much as will anacting more laws do any good? Passing more laws just to say that they are there doesn't do much good, are they actually going to enforce these laws? The problem is that responsible people will do what they are supposed to do, pay the fines they are supposed to pay. It is the irresponsible that won't follow the laws, won't pay the fines, and lets face it these are the people the laws are being passed because of. Are they going to go home-to-home? Require vets to "tattle" on their clients? again alot of irresponsible owners don't even take their pets to the vet. I agree that something needs done, I'm just not sure that fining good breeders every year to pay for the irresponsible is it. I agree that free training classes and education is the way to go. I would prefer my tax dollars to go to paying a trainer for the animal control and/or humane societies. When you adopt a dog from one of those places you get a free training class. I would like to believe that the more people know what is wrong the more you will get folks who will try to do the right thing. There was a time when I didn't know better, and I had to learn it from places like this.

[saharadane]

There are quite a few low cost spay/neuter clinics here. $20 - $30. People don't take advantage of them. Or, they just want a few litters to recoup their costs or make some additional dollars.

[Danester]

I agree with "Puppies and kittens banned from sell in any retailer, wholesaler or pet stores". We have a pet store here that sells puppies. They constantly have pens full of mixed breed puppies like Schnoodles, puggles, pompoos ect. Makes me sick. I won't ever buy a thing from that store I don't want to support them in any way, shape or form. They have a huge sign out front of their store that says "new puppies arriving every week" You would think that when people read that a red flag would go up in their head! We have a population of 75,000 people in our city. I highly doubt that there is that much of a demand for puppies here with that population. Makes me wonder, what happens to all thosepuppies that stay there untill they aren't considdered puppies anymore, say, 4months, six months old?

[Mongo]

They are sold to people who need a discount puppy.
They are NEVER euthanized, and they are NEVER sold below costs.
(I have worked in several stores.)

There is actually a shortage of adoptable puppies at shelters and rescues in the US. Problem is, they end up bounced around when they are allowed to spiral out of controll.
Then, the humans blame the untrained dog as tempermentally unsuited for their life and dump them off at shelters and rescues for someone else to foster and train for FREE while everyone clucks their tounge and blames the BREEDERS. wth??

Funny how everyone wants to blame breeders but refuses to look at mix breed BUYERS and ask "How'd you end up with THAT genetic mistake?" LOL
No dog asks to be born. How about we address the stupid buyers that should know better?

Randa

[XcelDanes]

Louisville Ky did some 72 page or more BS stuff like this its too the point clubs are no longer going to show their as soon as contracts are up etc....the only ones that abide by the laws are the honest reputable people anyway so they are the ones paying.Some of the laws now in Louisville Ky are how long a leash you have to have,how old you can be to walk dogs,how your fence has to be put up,how many pets per size of your lot you live on,Here and Louisville has intact animals hve to pay HUGE fees so we can pay for the spays etc...for low income families.The responsible people arent the ones causing the problems and they are the ones paying and abiding by the laws.Once the laws go into effect who enforces them?
Another lw added to the books I just remembered was if your dog gets loose PERIOD its fixed and your fined big $$ t oget it back.I cant remember all the really crazy ones in all the pages but I remember several from when we were helping fight it even though we dont live their we do have several HUGE shows and things their and sadly our counts are way down because of it.People are scared to stay their so they stay outside of the town and they have lost money big money from it.I have the entire thing saved Ill dig it out this weekend.BUt tons $$ and man power and months fighting alot of silly things went.