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  • Rancid Breath!

    I have an almost 4 yr old Dane with horribly rancid/sour smelling breath--smells similar to her rancid stinky poop.

    Recent bloodwork all normal, recent non-anesthetic dental by a professional dental technician who says her teeth and gums are very healthy, regular brushing at home, mostly raw fed (NW Naturals) for the year that I've had her (occasional high quality grain-free kibble/canned), and prebiotics/probiotics/digestive enzymes daily. She won't chew bones. She had asymptomatic giardia that I treated with metronidazole ~6 weeks ago and I was hoping that was the source of the stink... She has sensitivity at the thoracic lumbar junction of her spine that I treat with chiro and acupuncture...that location is associated with the GI tract, so I was hoping acupuncture would help but so far no luck.

    She just had her teeth cleaned and her breath still smells awful, and I just noticed that my raw fed 6 month old kitten has similar foul, rancid breath...

    Any ideas?? I'm a vet tech so I know that dog breath stinks, but I don't think it's right for my young, healthy, raw fed, clean teeth animals to have such foul breath!!
    Amanda & Emma

  • #2
    Maybe a dumb question, but has he been eating frozen ? Some think it is like a treat or something...

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    • #3
      Originally posted by jrturk View Post
      Maybe a dumb question, but has he been eating frozen ? Some think it is like a treat or something...
      Nope, no poop eating I don't have a yard, so she's always supervised on our walks and has no interest in eating anything other than her food.
      Amanda & Emma

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      • #4
        Perhaps it's something with the prepared Raw that you feed?

        I also feed Raw but not pre-made with the exception of some BRB beef and venison (w/bone) rolls. No additives, just ground and frozen. The rest of my meat comes from Sam's (pork loin), Walmart (Thanksgiving turkey sale - stuffed an entire freezer full with 36 turkeys) and chicken from wherever it's cheapest... Occasionally I add specialty items like duck, rabbit, beef tongue etc from the local butcher-type store. Oh and I add canned fish and eggs here and there as well.

        Is there anything that she will chew on (maybe bully sticks; not that they smell pleasant haha) that could help clear some gunk off her teeth? I'm afraid only very hard bones will really scrape the tartar but if you're doing regular dentals and teeth brushing that should suffice.
        *Jennifer*
        Member GDC of Mid-Florida
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        • #5
          Originally posted by oceanbluedanes View Post
          Perhaps it's something with the prepared Raw that you feed?

          I also feed Raw but not pre-made with the exception of some BRB beef and venison (w/bone) rolls. No additives, just ground and frozen. The rest of my meat comes from Sam's (pork loin), Walmart (Thanksgiving turkey sale - stuffed an entire freezer full with 36 turkeys) and chicken from wherever it's cheapest... Occasionally I add specialty items like duck, rabbit, beef tongue etc from the local butcher-type store. Oh and I add canned fish and eggs here and there as well.

          Is there anything that she will chew on (maybe bully sticks; not that they smell pleasant haha) that could help clear some gunk off her teeth? I'm afraid only very hard bones will really scrape the tartar but if you're doing regular dentals and teeth brushing that should suffice.
          I also add raw beef liver, beef tongue, elk liver, elk heart, etc whenever I get them from my uncle's farm and from family hunting leftovers...and some talapia here and there. The NW Naturals is what we sell at my clinic so I know a ton of dogs who eat it and don't have bad breath... I would love to do homemade raw but just don't have the time.

          As far as her teeth, she liked some samples of Virbac chews that I tried, but I haven't bought them...I'd prefer raw meaty bones...just not very comfortable giving dental chews. But there's not even a single dot of plaque on her teeth--she just had them cleaned a couple days ago and the tech looks at them with a blacklight afterwards (plaque glows pink under blacklight) and makes sure they're perfect. I maintain with brushing and some scaling/polishing at home in between professional cleanings every 3-4 months, so the smell can't be coming from plaque/tartar buildup or rotting teeth...it's really bad when she yawns and exhales, but also stinks even if I just lift up her jowl and sniff. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but her breath just about knocks other people off their feet, so I don't think it's just me :/
          Amanda & Emma

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          • #6
            Maybe I'm expecting too much perfection from feeding raw. I just see so much disease as a vet tech, and feel like in the year since I got Emma I have been unable to get her into perfect health...it's just one thing after another with her.
            Amanda & Emma

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            • #7
              Just throwing it out there, but sometimes worms give dogs the breath from hell. Maybe an updated fecal is in order just to rule it out.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Angel7292 View Post
                Just throwing it out there, but sometimes worms give dogs the breath from hell. Maybe an updated fecal is in order just to rule it out.
                She just had an O&P a few weeks ago to recheck after treating for giardia :/ her poops have smelled like this for many months at least...maybe since I got her... I'm not sure if it's gotten worse or stayed the same. It's easy for me to just run a fecal float at work though, so maybe I'll take a sample in next week and check it out under the microscope to make sure!

                Keep the ideas coming, I appreciate it!
                Amanda & Emma

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by INFJND View Post
                  She just had an O&P a few weeks ago to recheck after treating for giardia :/ her poops have smelled like this for many months at least...maybe since I got her... I'm not sure if it's gotten worse or stayed the same. It's easy for me to just run a fecal float at work though, so maybe I'll take a sample in next week and check it out under the microscope to make sure!

                  Keep the ideas coming, I appreciate it!
                  I always think if your doing a fecal, do a float and a smear just to be certain. We had an experience years ago where intestinal buggies caused the breath of death (LOL). I was quite surprised to find this was the cause because we would never have suspected any intestinal issue since she had no other symptoms.

                  Since you've ruled out teeth problems and no eating of strange things while outside since she is supervised, that really limits the possibilities. I can think of lots of things that can cause bad breath but what is odd to me is that you said your kitten has the same problem. In humans, bad breath can be from gut issues, liver issues, kidney disease and even lung cancer. I would start a hunt for other disease or issues if there is no parasites and there is no dental issue EXCEPT what is puzzling is that your kitten having the same bad breath!?! Just by reasonable elimination, that would rule out disease specific to the dog if the 6 month old kitten has the same problem. One common denominator would be the food.

                  I know you mentioned occassionally feeding grain free kibble but primarily a prepared raw food. If the fecal shows nothing, I would do a total switch up of the food for a bit and see if that helps. I'd suggest going to fresh raw / not prepared but if she won't eat bone, that isn't going to work for you. So the alternative would be putting her solely on the grain free kibble that you occassionally use. At least within a few weeks there should be improvement (or at least some change) if the food is the source.

                  Very perplexing.. Be sure to keep us updated. I'd love to know what you figure out. Good luck!
                  Last edited by Angel7292; 03-14-2013, 09:01 PM.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Angel7292 View Post
                    I always think if your doing a fecal, do a float and a smear just to be certain. We had an experience years ago where intestinal buggies caused the breath of death (LOL). I was quite surprised to find this was the cause because we would never have suspected any intestinal issue since she had no other symptoms.

                    Since you've ruled out teeth problems and no eating of strange things while outside since she is supervised, that really limits the possibilities. I can think of lots of things that can cause bad breath but what is odd to me is that you said your kitten has the same problem. In humans, bad breath can be from gut issues, liver issues, kidney disease and even lung cancer. I would start a hunt for other disease or issues if there is no parasites and there is no dental issue EXCEPT what is puzzling is that your kitten having the same bad breath!?! Just by reasonable elimination, that would rule out disease specific to the dog if the 6 month old kitten has the same problem. One common denominator would be the food.

                    I know you mentioned occassionally feeding grain free kibble but primarily a prepared raw food. If the fecal shows nothing, I would do a total switch up of the food for a bit and see if that helps. I'd suggest going to fresh raw / not prepared but if she won't eat bone, that isn't going to work for you. So the alternative would be putting her solely on the grain free kibble that you occassionally use. At least within a few weeks there should be improvement (or at least some change) if the food is the source.

                    Very perplexing.. Be sure to keep us updated. I'd love to know what you figure out. Good luck!
                    Thank you for all the ideas! Very helpful. I will put this all to the test. I have quite a bit of organ meat in my freezer so I could just buy some ground meat and Better in the Raw and TC Feline (mixes for making homemade raw that's nutritionally balanced) and prepare homemade for a few weeks to see if it helps. Emma is not all that into kibble and has phases of anorexia, so I suspect she'd lose weight if I tried to get her to go back to only kibble.

                    The fecal smear is a good idea I hadn't thought of since we never run those in my clinic. She's on antibiotics right now, so I'll have to wait until a week or so after this course is complete to look at her poop.

                    A few other things that now seem worth mentioning:

                    -While she doesn't EAT anything outside (besides select pieces of grass--wild, not maintained by landscapers with pesticides), she tries to drink anything liquid (she has psychogenic polydipsia--basically an addiction to water--determined by working with an internal med specialist and doing a bunch of tests to rule out Addison's, upper UTI, renal disease, etc). I try my best to keep her from drinking outside, but sometimes she gets a couple laps out of a puddle... this makes giardia and lepto big concerns, but perhaps there are other things/parasites she could get from drinking out of puddles, especially on the wooded trails around my house?

                    -My vet recently did a needle aspirate on a couple of sebaceous cysts just to confirm that they weren't anything to worry about and Emma got an abscess and is now on antibiotics for the secondary infection...super rare for dogs to get an infection from an aspirate done by a vet with a sterile needle...immune system concern?

                    -She has had a couple of sebaceous cysts the whole time I've had her, but also gets some that come and go in groups, mostly along her spine but also on her sides and muzzle

                    -Emma's teeth build plaque/tartar SUPER fast. The dental tech is amazed by how quickly it builds up on her teeth, and her submandibular lymph nodes get extremely swollen as soon as a week or two after having her teeth cleaned...my vet thinks it's due to the drainage of bacteria from her mouth, and isn't too concerned about it since Emma is so sensitive to everything (mentally and physically, lol). That's why I do brushing/scaling/polishing at home between professional cleanings. This most recent time the tech said her teeth were WAY better than usual, but as a rule she is very prone to buildup of bacteria in her mouth.

                    -She had asymptomatic giardia treated with a course of metronidazole 6 weeks ago. Giardia ELISA tests can come back positive for up to 6 months after a successful treatment, so I have just done an O&P through Antech to confirm that there are at least no giardia cysts in her stool...and also did an O&P for the kitten...and also did a giardia test for myself just to be on the safe side haha. All came back negative.

                    -Emma had elevated BUN (common for raw fed animals) and elevated/trending upwards creatinine over the past 9 months, but they were never out of range at the same time. After a month on Standard Process Canine Renal Support, all values were within normal limits. She's staying on that nutraceutical for one more month, then we'll discontinue and just monitor her renal values every 3-6 months.

                    I sound exactly like some of the overbearing pet parents that I laugh about at work...I realize I'm an over the top dog mom, but thus far my gut feelings about things being "not right" with her have been correct, so I feel that there's something more to this than just "bad dog breath"... : D
                    Amanda & Emma

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by INFJND View Post

                      I sound exactly like some of the overbearing pet parents that I laugh about at work...I realize I'm an over the top dog mom, but thus far my gut feelings about things being "not right" with her have been correct, so I feel that there's something more to this than just "bad dog breath"... : D
                      I agree with you... something is NOT right. A dog should not have breath that would knock you over.

                      So here is my question for you after reading your whole response: Does the kitten have the same bad breath? I know in your first message you said she did. I understand the whole list of issues that you mentioned and quite frankly, I can see a lot of things within the list that easily can be the cause of the bad breath. But those are specific to the dog. If the dog and cat have the same bad breath, that limits what it could be. Then you would be looking for a common denominator like something they both can get into, food or something infectious that could be shared between them (either germs, worms or whatever).

                      If the kitten does have the same bad breath, I think starting with a food change up would be the best for a short time and see if there is any improvement. Plus further testing for anything buggy they could be sharing between each other. If the kitten doesn't have the same bad breath as you mentioned in the first post (or at least different), well that is just a whole new ball park and a LOT of things on your list could very well be the cause plus many more things that are specific to the dog.

                      I don't have any specific idea on how to figure this out, but more of a broad idea and perhaps being a vet tech you can finish this thought for me. I wonder if you could swab her mouth and culture it and see if there is something very abnormal in it that shouldn't be there. Or culture the blood. I wonder if there is a systemic issue with a paticular bacteria overload that is causing some of her issues. Know what I mean?

                      Also, I don't know much about the workings of a dogs gut, but it couldn't be too far from humans I would think. In humans, a rancid breath with no dental issue starts with a serious exploration of what could be going on in the stomach and bowel system. That is the first place you'd look .. in humans at least. Then of course there are kidney diseases, liver diseases and lung disease to follow and consider.

                      Hey, I'm an over the top dog mom too. It never hurts to be an advocate for your dog and if you think something is wrong, there probably is. I deal daily with a dane with a immune system and he is like a walking petri dish too. It is chronically always something and it's exhausting. I feel your pain. Hang in there!!

                      ETA: Just as a second thought, is the dog able to get into the litter box?
                      Last edited by Angel7292; 03-15-2013, 06:25 AM.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Angel7292 View Post
                        I agree with you... something is NOT right. A dog should not have breath that would knock you over.

                        So here is my question for you after reading your whole response: Does the kitten have the same bad breath? I know in your first message you said she did. I understand the whole list of issues that you mentioned and quite frankly, I can see a lot of things within the list that easily can be the cause of the bad breath. But those are specific to the dog. If the dog and cat have the same bad breath, that limits what it could be. Then you would be looking for a common denominator like something they both can get into, food or something infectious that could be shared between them (either germs, worms or whatever).

                        If the kitten does have the same bad breath, I think starting with a food change up would be the best for a short time and see if there is any improvement. Plus further testing for anything buggy they could be sharing between each other. If the kitten doesn't have the same bad breath as you mentioned in the first post (or at least different), well that is just a whole new ball park and a LOT of things on your list could very well be the cause plus many more things that are specific to the dog.

                        I don't have any specific idea on how to figure this out, but more of a broad idea and perhaps being a vet tech you can finish this thought for me. I wonder if you could swab her mouth and culture it and see if there is something very abnormal in it that shouldn't be there. Or culture the blood. I wonder if there is a systemic issue with a paticular bacteria overload that is causing some of her issues. Know what I mean?

                        Also, I don't know much about the workings of a dogs gut, but it couldn't be too far from humans I would think. In humans, a rancid breath with no dental issue starts with a serious exploration of what could be going on in the stomach and bowel system. That is the first place you'd look .. in humans at least. Then of course there are kidney diseases, liver diseases and lung disease to follow and consider.

                        Hey, I'm an over the top dog mom too. It never hurts to be an advocate for your dog and if you think something is wrong, there probably is. I deal daily with a dane with a immune system and he is like a walking petri dish too. It is chronically always something and it's exhausting. I feel your pain. Hang in there!!

                        ETA: Just as a second thought, is the dog able to get into the litter box?
                        Ahh thank you so much for your thoughtful reply! So, Emma and I were staying elsewhere for a week and I had to feed her kibble due to lack of fridge/freezer space...I thought her breath was improving and wanted to do another week or two on kibble to see, but on the 6th day of kibble she had liquid diarrhea...it has been a few days since then and she has had soft stool, and diarrhea one more time, and just now had a bunch of orangey mucus in her stool = colitis. So, switching to bland diet + pumpkin + GI support supplements. After the bland diet I will try switching her to homemade raw food for a few weeks to see if that makes a difference.

                        I can't think of a common denominator between her and the kitten...they both eat pre-made raw, but from different companies (Rad Cat and Northwest Naturals). Kitten is indoor only, no access to Emma's poop. And Emma has never shown even the faintest interest in the kitten's litterbox (rather, when she goes in the bathroom her only interest is to see if there's any new water in the bathtub for her to lick out), but it has a lid with a small hole, designed to keep litter pieces inside and dog faces outside! The kitten's breath is bad, but not nearly as awful as Emma's. They have both had recent negative fecal floats. The kitten vomits up hairballs once every week or two, but I consider that fairly normal.

                        I do want to try running a fecal smear, and think it's been long enough since her recent round of antibiotics. Will try that as soon as her stools normalize a bit.

                        I agree that something has to be going on in her GI tract, and the fact that she got colitis from eating [high-quality Orijen] kibble for only a week just further supports the idea that she's super sensitive. It's possible that it was a result of the antibiotics, but I've been giving her a really good probiotic, and she has been on antibiotics once or twice before without issue. Who knows. I think she has a poopy immune system, like your dog. My vet calls her "the broken dog." Once I've tried a few more things on my own I'll see if my vet has any other ideas. Emma always has something or another going on with her health, so I feel bad pestering my vet so much (since I work there and don't pay much for her time).

                        Will keep you posted if I figure anything out!!
                        Amanda & Emma

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