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  • Honestly, I just don't even know

    I had to take Sadie to the vet (unfortunately, again, not our normal vet. He is impossible to get in to see last minute) today for a suspected UTI or something along those lines. I was concerned because She peed in the house last week (completely abnormal but I chalked it up to summer and increased water consumption) and then Saturday night she peed in her sleep. I was also concerned that she had been acting a little funny. I don't know, she was just down, a little slow moving for how she normally is or something. I wish I had a better way to describe it but I can tell she is just off.

    The vet did a urinalysis and everything came back ok but he said that her urine was pretty diluted. About a week ago I took Sadie in for an allergic reaction and the vet gave her a vetalog injection. He said that sometimes that injection causes increased thirst and therefore increased urination and maybe that was the problem. At this point he does not think it is incontinence. While the vet was checking Sadie over he noticed that she had a decreased heart rate, 90 when last time we were in it was 180 (She gets a little worked up at the vet). After I explained her other symptoms, how she is acting a little off, he thought about it and mentioned Addisons Disease. He decided to run some blood tests to see if any of her levels indicated Addisons. he said it didn't look like Addison's but some of her levels came back a little low or on the lower end of normal(low: WBC, EOS, PLT and AMYL. low/normal: LYM, NEU, RDW, MONO and BASO). I wish I did, but I understand little to none of what I'm looking at when I look at the results. I am trying to figure out how to scan the results in so you can see them but the file is too large. The vet said he didn't want to jump to conclusions and that maybe some of her levels could still be a result of the vetalog but that he would like to keep an eye on things. We have a recheck on the 11th for the allergies with our normal vet so I will talk to him and get his opinion then but I would really love to hear what you guys know/think. I'm a little concerned for my girl.
    Love is being owned by a Great Dane.sigpic

  • #2
    Vetalog lasts for 10-14 days and can make some dogs have accidents so I would think that since all else is normal, it could very well be just the vetalog.

    I would have your bet look at this blood work and compare it to her blood work from past samples to know if there's a significant difference or if those are normal for her
    sigpic
    Crystal
    Owned by:
    Dexter 8 year old GD, CGC
    CH xxx's Top Gear AKA Studebaker (Baker) 4 years
    Bagel 19 yr old Maine Coon
    Lox 11 yr old Russian Blue mix

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    • #3
      Similar experience...

      Have you figured anything out yet? Has she had any more accidents? I adopted Emma mid-May and she didn't have any accidents (that I know of) until early July as soon as it got really hot out. After the first really warm day (and being outside at a BBQ for a couple hours) she drank a LOT of water and peed quite a bit in her sleep that night (in my bed). This continued for a few days, at which point my vet suggested that her kidneys were probably just adjusting to increased water consumption so she had to go suddenly and couldn't hold it.

      However, it has now been a few weeks and she is still peeing (usually small amounts) in my bed on a fairly regular basis..usually in the middle of the night...even though I get up and take her out every 3-6 hours. Her pee is very dilute, so it doesn't really smell and the stains only show up on white, so it's hard to tell whether she's leaking during the day or just peeing when she's in a deep sleep at night. She had complete bloodwork and urinalysis run in mid-June and everything was within normal ranges except her urine was very dilute and her platelet count was low. Some other results may have been on the upper or lower limits of the normal range though, so I will compare her results to Sadie's when I have a copy of her bloodwork handy. When this all started she was acting stressed and down and a little off, just like how you described Sadie. However, I attributed it to the stress of being a bit overheated for a couple hours at the BBQ (slight discomfort--no where near heat stroke...it was only like 75 degrees and she spent 2.5 hrs in the shade, chugging ice water, and getting hosed down a couple times, and then we went home to the A/C).

      It's worth mentioning that Emma gets into "chug mode" any time she has access to water. Unless she has had unlimited access for a few hours and has gotten her fill, she will chug a huge bowl of water without stopping. I have to limit how much water she has when I leave her alone and when I'm home I have to tell her "enough!" to get her to stop every time she drinks. My vet says some dogs just don't know how to stop until the water runs out or something distracts them. She's far more interested in water than ANY type of food.

      My vet suggested doing a modified water restriction test (giving her free access to water for a day and measuring exactly how much she drinks, then reducing her allowable intake by 25% the next day, and comparing the specific gravity of her urine from each day). This would show whether her kidneys are capable of concentrating her urine. I haven't done it yet, but the other day I inadvertently denied her food and water for like 12 hrs and in the morning her urine was much darker yellow than it normally is (it's normally almost clear). So I'm not too worried that she has diabetes insipidus or some other disorder related to an inability to utilize water properly...

      I think the next step is to try to see if she is incontinent by either trying Phyto-B to see if that solves the problem, or using dog diapers to determine how often and how much she's leaking urine.

      She doesn't have enough symptoms of Addison's for me to be super worried about it, but it's definitely on my radar... : /

      Please let me know if you figure anything out about what's going on with Sadie!
      Amanda & Emma

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      • #4
        Originally posted by bama86 View Post
        I had to take Sadie to the vet (unfortunately, again, not our normal vet. He is impossible to get in to see last minute) today for a suspected UTI or something along those lines. I was concerned because She peed in the house last week (completely abnormal but I chalked it up to summer and increased water consumption) and then Saturday night she peed in her sleep. I was also concerned that she had been acting a little funny. I don't know, she was just down, a little slow moving for how she normally is or something. I wish I had a better way to describe it but I can tell she is just off.

        The vet did a urinalysis and everything came back ok but he said that her urine was pretty diluted. About a week ago I took Sadie in for an allergic reaction and the vet gave her a vetalog injection. He said that sometimes that injection causes increased thirst and therefore increased urination and maybe that was the problem. At this point he does not think it is incontinence. While the vet was checking Sadie over he noticed that she had a decreased heart rate, 90 when last time we were in it was 180 (She gets a little worked up at the vet). After I explained her other symptoms, how she is acting a little off, he thought about it and mentioned Addisons Disease. He decided to run some blood tests to see if any of her levels indicated Addisons. he said it didn't look like Addison's but some of her levels came back a little low or on the lower end of normal(low: WBC, EOS, PLT and AMYL. low/normal: LYM, NEU, RDW, MONO and BASO). I wish I did, but I understand little to none of what I'm looking at when I look at the results. I am trying to figure out how to scan the results in so you can see them but the file is too large. The vet said he didn't want to jump to conclusions and that maybe some of her levels could still be a result of the vetalog but that he would like to keep an eye on things. We have a recheck on the 11th for the allergies with our normal vet so I will talk to him and get his opinion then but I would really love to hear what you guys know/think. I'm a little concerned for my girl.
        With Addison's you would see HIGH potassium (K+) and LOW sodium (Na+).

        I'm confused about timing. Was the blood work with the low levels of WBC taken before or after the VetaLog injection?

        I would call your normal vet's office and see if you can get copies of your previous blood works. I think the immunosuppression could very well be because of the VetaLog. VetaLog = Triamcinolone acetonide. It's a corticosteroid, and is more potent than prednisone. One of the major adverse reactions of corticosteroids is immunosuppression, which may explain why her WBC differential came back low. It could also account for her mood changes. I'd want to compare your recent results to previous tests, to see if there are differences, and to a test in a few weeks once her system has stabilized again.

        When looking at the lab results, there should be a number in the results and a reference range. Hope that helps some!
        sigpic
        <, and Stef
        <'
        What do you call cheese that isn't yours? Macho Cheese!!

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        • #5
          Sadie has been completely normal since a few days after the vet. She has not had any more accidents at all. This may or may not have been a case of me getting way to paranoid way too quickly. We had the blood work with the low WBC was done after the vetalog shot. I'm not sure if we have any other blood work paperwork... though, she has been spayed so I would think they would have it on file from that. I will have to ask the next time we go in for something. After going for the recheck with our normal vet he said he was not worried about Addison's in the least. the other vet was just being overly cautious. (I didn't see a reference range on the results but I will look again)


          INFJND- Has Emma been spayed? I might have missed it but, how old is she? Do you think spay incontinence might be an option? Sadie's issues just turned out to be a reaction to the vetalog and the vet also mentioned that she could be hypersensitive to the antihistamine she was on. Has Emma been on any medications that could be effecting her?
          Love is being owned by a Great Dane.sigpic

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          • #6
            Originally posted by bama86 View Post
            INFJND- Has Emma been spayed? I might have missed it but, how old is she? Do you think spay incontinence might be an option? Sadie's issues just turned out to be a reaction to the vetalog and the vet also mentioned that she could be hypersensitive to the antihistamine she was on. Has Emma been on any medications that could be effecting her?
            Well I'm glad to hear that Sadie is doing better!

            Emma is spayed and her 3rd birthday was April 20th. I tracked down her original vet records using her microchip number and found that she was spayed at 8 months. Too early IMO, but I'm not sure that it's early enough to make spay incontinence THAT likely? Or is it more common even at that age in larger breed dogs? There are 2 labs at my clinic who were spayed at 4 months and both became incontinent around age 2...one of them is 10 now and she just dribbles 100% of her urine all the time, even on the maximum dose of meds :/

            Emma had all the vaccines (5 way, rabies, and bordatella) when she was at the humane society in April 2012. Since I've had her she has had Program (non-toxic monthly chewable tablet that sterilizes fleas but doesn't kill them), a few doses of Canine Pet Calm (western herbal supplement for anxiety); she was on Standard Process - Canine Enteric Support for a couple weeks when I first got her just to clear up her diarrhea. She eats NW Naturals pre-made raw dog food and I add raw goat's milk, iFlora probiotics/digestive enzymes for pets, colostrum, and coconut oil to most of her meals...she eats 4-5lbs per day split into 3-4 meals.

            I just bought human adult diapers to use for now to see if I can track how much and when she's leaking...any thoughts or advice much appreciated! Thanks
            Amanda & Emma

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            • #7
              Don't know if this is still a problem but if it is (or ever becomes one again), ask the vet to do a urine culture, not just a urinalysis. When we first got Sophie, she wet the bed and her urine was really dilute and our original vet did a urinalysis and said she didn't have a UTI then I took her to a different vet who did a culture and found out she did have one. She does have an enlarged urethra and a displaced bladder so she gets them more often.
              sigpic
              Hamish: Great Dane born July 25 2011
              Sophie: English Mastiff born May 30 2009
              Visit my blog at http://gonetothebigdogs.wordpress.com/

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              • #8
                Awesome. I work for a vet so that's no biggie to run a culture. I will talk to the doc about it tomorrow! Thank you!! P.S. Cranberry Plus can be an awesome supplement for helping prevent UTIs in dogs who are prone!
                Amanda & Emma

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                • #9
                  I agree with the urine culture.

                  Is she only having accidents when she's sleeping? If so could be spay incontinence as well in which a medication may help. I'd do the culture first and possibly X-rays if she is leaking more than just in her sleep
                  sigpic
                  Crystal
                  Owned by:
                  Dexter 8 year old GD, CGC
                  CH xxx's Top Gear AKA Studebaker (Baker) 4 years
                  Bagel 19 yr old Maine Coon
                  Lox 11 yr old Russian Blue mix

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DextersMomma View Post
                    I agree with the urine culture.

                    Is she only having accidents when she's sleeping? If so could be spay incontinence as well in which a medication may help. I'd do the culture first and possibly X-rays if she is leaking more than just in her sleep
                    That's what they thought about Sophie originally and they were going to put her on meds but after a round of antibiotics it cleared up

                    Now I know (and my vet knows) that whenever she starts wetting the bed, we just need to put her on anti-biotics for a while and she stops again.
                    sigpic
                    Hamish: Great Dane born July 25 2011
                    Sophie: English Mastiff born May 30 2009
                    Visit my blog at http://gonetothebigdogs.wordpress.com/

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                    • #11
                      WELLL... I hate to bring this thread back to the top but Sadie is having issues again. The other night someone peed in their sleep again.. I'm not 100% sure if it was Sadie or Gabby though. The reason I think it could have been Gabby is because we took her in to the vet for some skin issues and she got a vetalog shot and then that night someone wet the bed (which is what happened to Sadie after she got the vetalog shot). It could have been Sadie because it was Sadie's side of the bed, but the girls will sometimes switch in the middle of the night. But, I did wake up to Sadie acting really weird that night. She was not laying on her side of the bed where she normally would. She was just sitting practically on top of Gabby on Gabby's side of the bed. I decided to let it go that night because I could not say for sure who actually peed. But then last night Sadie and I were laying on the couch and when she got up there was a huge wet spot under her. Her urine has to be super diluted because it hardly had a smell to it at all.

                      We are going to the vet Wednesday afternoon to try to figure something out. I will definitely bring up the urine culture but I was wondering if since the peeing in her sleep is so intermittent could it still be a UTI? Is spay incontinence a constant issue or could it be intermittent as well? Thanks for the help, guys. I have been doing some reading online about this but always value everyone's opinions.

                      INFJND, did you figure anything out?
                      Love is being owned by a Great Dane.sigpic

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bama86 View Post
                        I was wondering if since the peeing in her sleep is so intermittent could it still be a UTI? Is spay incontinence a constant issue or could it be intermittent as well?

                        INFJND, did you figure anything out?
                        First of all, we have a client at my clinic whose dogs have both been incontinent (due to early spay) for many years, and he has said that the incontinence is cyclical for one of them. So, that is a possibility for Sadie. It seems more likely though that it was just the vetalog causing it again....hopefully that's the case.

                        I did a couple rounds of moderate water deprivation (12-14 hrs without water and only 1 raw meal) and both times her urine specific gravity was still low at 1.02. Her urinalysis a month or so ago had low specific gravity also (1.013) but she had been drinking lots of water at the clinic that day before I collected the sample, so after I told the doc that he wasn't too concerned. However, with the excessive urination (every 2-4 hours, or 5-6 hrs if somewhat water deprived), accidental peeing in bed, and seeming inability to concentrate her urine even when deprived of water, he's concerned... Diabetes insipidus seems to fit, but it's SO SO rare. The only other thing my vet suspects is kidney dysfunction caused by psychogenic polydipsia (basically meaning she got herself addicted to water--possibly during the many months with her original owner when she was starving herself from stress and lost ~35lbs?--and it flushed out her kidneys so much that they now lack the necessary salts etc to concentrate the urine appropriately and conserve water). That was my interpretation of his brief explanation...it's a long shot theory anyways though. It may also just have something to do with the way her kidneys responded to starvation for who knows how long [I am tempted to contact her original owners...I have the vet records with a name and phone number...it seems over the line but if we can't figure this thing out it would help a ton to have a complete medical history].

                        My vet recommended I take her to an internal medicine specialist... Since her bloodwork was perfect and showed normal kidney function, it's not super emergent, but if I can't get at least one specific gravity reading between 1.03 and 1.04, then I need to take her to the specialist. I'm currently doing one more round of water deprivation because a few days ago I came home to an empty toilet bowl, so now I'm wondering if maybe she drank from the toilet and ruined my water deprivation trial last time....if the specific gravity is still 1.02 then I'm scheduling her with the specialist :/

                        I will update the thread when I find out anything else that may be relevant to others on here!
                        Amanda & Emma

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