Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Wondering about age and other potential issues

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Wondering about age and other potential issues

    I keep looking at Zephyr and having trouble believing that he's the age his previous owner claimed. They seem to have been honest about everything else, so I suppose I don't have any reason to doubt them, but I'm wondering if anyone here has any input or age guesses.

    When I visited the vet he commented that Zeph's canines are not fully grown in yet. His testicles are still rather small for his body (could be that they haven't developed or that they're going to stay small). He's currently consuming about 9.5-10 cups of food per day. He weighed 110 lbs when not fully on the scale (he was afraid of it) and is just a smidge under 34.5" at the shoulder.

    He certainly acts like a young puppy still and is clumsy and awkward.

    And a few photos:

    Body view:



    He has a ton of knuckle:



    His forelegs are almost twice as big around as Titan's...:



    ...and the same size as my forearms.:



    Do you think he's a poorly bred 7 month old? Or do you think he could be older? I am hoping he's older than they told me, as it would increase the likelihood that he won't grow any more, which would be ideal.

    Other questions - Do you think his head and neck will fill out as he gains muscle tone, or he will forever have that thin-cheeked, thin-necked look? Because of his lack of proper nutrition, should I start looking into joint supplements at a younger age than normal? He's on good food now (I transitioned directly because I *refused* to buy a bag of Kibbles 'N Bits, no loose stools so far with the change), but I'm pretty concerned about the long term effects that kind of diet will have on him.

    Is there anything else I should do? I will have him OFA hip and elbow tested at 24 months just to head off any potential issues. Should I do any tests on his heart? Annual thyroid testing? How has everyone managed their poorly bred rescues/rehomes?

    To add: He's already been heartworm tested (negative), put on heartworm medication in case of a false negative and has had a fecal. All clear. Just wondering about long term health issues that I can potentially screen for.

    Thanks in advance for any age guesses or advice!
    Last edited by Hiraeth; 07-20-2016, 12:13 PM.
    sigpic

  • #2
    I'm not sure I'd bother with any testing at this point unless he's showing signs/symptoms of a problem. Did you do any baseline bloodwork? That's about all I'd do, and maybe cardiac testing later in life. It's not like he's guaranteed to have a ton of health problems just because he's poorly bred any more than a well-bred dog is guaranteed to never have a problem. Shoot, my Aussie growing up lived to be almost 15 and was hit by a car - who knows how much longer he might have lived? Never a single health issue and was very active all his life. And I can guarantee you he ate the cheapest food you can buy and my parents got him from the Amish for $50, so definitely backyard bred and possibly from a mill-type situation.

    He could very well be 7 months. Finn was 100 lbs at 6 months, so he's kind of on track with that and seems to be heavily built despite his lack of muscle tone. Maybe he's a "Euro". Or maybe he's not 7 months, I'm sure no expert Maybe Jen can comment since she's had a lot more experience watching pups grow and develop.
    sigpic
    Chaucey
    Asaah ~ xxx Asaah LaLa, CGC, registered therapy dog

    Comment


    • #3
      Is it possible to contact the breeder? Did you get any information about them from the last owners

      Comment


      • #4
        He has a puppy face. And I'd love to see his teeth but I know that can be difficult. If the vet looked at his teeth and agreed with the young age thing I'd say it's pretty accurate.
        ~ Lisa & Rupert

        Comment


        • #5
          The build on your boys looks very similar to my two. Fergus is short and stocky (33.5" and 140 lbs at 3 1/2 years) where Eisen is tall and very lanky (36.5" and 130-35 lbs at 20 months). Eisen has TONS more bone than Ferg does too. Just looking at them standing side by side, Eisen's forelegs look 2x bigger than Ferg, and his feet absolutely dwarf Ferg's.

          I agree with Chaucey on testing. For now if he's not showing any symptoms I wouldn't bother. For thyroid specifically, according to my vet and breeder both, issues don't typically show up at at this age, so I'd for sure save that one for later.
          sigpic
          Fergus
          SC Dinnie Stone Guardian, CGC
          Eisen Shark
          C Shadows On The Sun, CGC

          Comment


          • #6
            Good news! Previous owner contacted me and said she found his papers, so I should have them before the end of the week. I do think she had misplaced them. Which also makes me think (unfortunately) that she's been honest about everything, including his age.

            Originally posted by oshagcj914 View Post
            I'm not sure I'd bother with any testing at this point unless he's showing signs/symptoms of a problem. Did you do any baseline bloodwork? That's about all I'd do, and maybe cardiac testing later in life. It's not like he's guaranteed to have a ton of health problems just because he's poorly bred any more than a well-bred dog is guaranteed to never have a problem. Shoot, my Aussie growing up lived to be almost 15 and was hit by a car - who knows how much longer he might have lived? Never a single health issue and was very active all his life. And I can guarantee you he ate the cheapest food you can buy and my parents got him from the Amish for $50, so definitely backyard bred and possibly from a mill-type situation.

            He could very well be 7 months. Finn was 100 lbs at 6 months, so he's kind of on track with that and seems to be heavily built despite his lack of muscle tone. Maybe he's a "Euro". Or maybe he's not 7 months, I'm sure no expert Maybe Jen can comment since she's had a lot more experience watching pups grow and develop.
            I was thinking he was probably a "Euro" It just freaks me out that he's the same height as Titan, who isn't a small Dane, at 7 months old. His feet and legs just dwarf Titan's.

            I was kind of worried about health issues when I met him. He was passed out in the sun on their deck and didn't so much as raise his head when my dad and I approached him. He finally kind of woke up and lifted his head to check us out, but seemed unnaturally lethargic. I immediately wondered if he had a heart issue, or heartworms, or something. He's perked up a bit now that he's in air conditioning and is being fed reasonably, so that has alleviated some of my concern.

            I did do bloodwork and the vet listened to his heart and said it sounded fine, which was a big relief!

            Originally posted by Lizgirl View Post
            Is it possible to contact the breeder? Did you get any information about them from the last owners
            His breeders are in Indiana and there are not any GDCA breeders in Indiana, according to the website. I will know more about the breeders as soon as I get his papers and will contact them to ask for more information. I am not too optimistic that I will hear anything back, though.

            Originally posted by Sparrow View Post
            He has a puppy face. And I'd love to see his teeth but I know that can be difficult. If the vet looked at his teeth and agreed with the young age thing I'd say it's pretty accurate.
            I can probably snap a photo of his teeth. He is amazingly tolerant of handling for a dog that has been lightly handled.

            Originally posted by SuzanneRM82 View Post
            The build on your boys looks very similar to my two. Fergus is short and stocky (33.5" and 140 lbs at 3 1/2 years) where Eisen is tall and very lanky (36.5" and 130-35 lbs at 20 months). Eisen has TONS more bone than Ferg does too. Just looking at them standing side by side, Eisen's forelegs look 2x bigger than Ferg, and his feet absolutely dwarf Ferg's.

            I agree with Chaucey on testing. For now if he's not showing any symptoms I wouldn't bother. For thyroid specifically, according to my vet and breeder both, issues don't typically show up at at this age, so I'd for sure save that one for later.
            It's crazy how much their bone weight and structure differs!

            I'm trying to compile a list to keep in my vet records file of things to test for in the future, so I'll be adding thyroid for future testing. I will talk about my plans with my regular vet when I see her, but her appointment book is full for the next two weeks so I had to use my backup vet for this visit. I didn't want him in my home for any lengthy period of time without having a fecal done, at least!

            I'm hoping my regular vet, who has a lot of giant breed experience, will be able to put together a testing timeline for me so that we can make sure Zeph gets the appropriate care from here on out


            Thanks for the replies everyone! My mind has been put at ease knowing that I've taken the appropriate steps with him so far!
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #7
              Some lines are heavier boned, that doesn't mean he'll be overly large. Some lines are more fine boned, but that doesn't mean they end up small. Who knows. An average male dane is 36" at the withers and at 7 months, he is most certainly on the downhill side of the growth spurt. Phineas also hit 100 pounds the week he turned 6 months old, same as Chaucey's Finn. It's right on schedule for an average size 7 month old. I'd say, if anything, being poorly bred would usually make them smaller in general. Being an average size is a good thing.

              Radiographs for hips and elbows is pretty extreme for a pet dane. In most instances, it ranges up there close to $700-1000 easily. It requires anesthesia (and it's risks) and they are taken with the dane on his back. You can do it prior to 2 years, but it's recommended to wait until 2 (growth is over). At that point, if the dog is going to be majorly dysplastic, you usually have your signs already. The whole exercise of knocking the dog out and then having the x-rays done will simply tell if you the dog is currently dysplastic for the most part. There are no guarantees. Even a dog with what OFA considers 'fair' hips is within normal range. A dog that is radiographed at the age of 2 that wasn't dysplastic can most certainly have future issues. The key to remember here is that it's a snap shot in time. The most you will learn is if you currently have a problem. It won't speak to the future. You could say that the majority of the dogs who have good hips at 2 won't be dysplastic in the future, but that's not a for sure thing.

              I wouldn't thyroid test unless there are reasons for it. In general, it's not a puppy issue. This is something that generally doesn't go unnoticed after a while anyway. Thyroid issues usually rear their ugly head after a few years and provide you with symptoms. You just have to watch for them.

              Lastly, most heart issues tend to crop up either right away or later in life. For DCM, cardiac US prior to 2 is way too early for a baseline per Phin's cardiologist. I do think that all danes, pet or show, should have at least one cardiac ultrasound and EKG by the age of 3 but no earlier then 2. Again, it's just a snap shot of what is happening at THAT moment. Even at 3, no signs of DCM is no guarantee. That is also why I think at least another US at 5 is a good idea. Depending on how long the dog lives, perhaps revisiting it again at 7-8. Phin's cardiologist wants it done yearly, but that is a bit much for me.

              Breeders that health test re-do thyroid and cardiac before every breeding. Or they should. The results are only good for today. He is only 7 months at this time and to be honest, results for things you are talking about are things that should be done post-puppy, in most cases. I understand your concerns, but I think you might be worrying yourself into doing more then you should at this point.

              I think at 7 months, your best bet is to just provide him good quality food, routine vet care and see how it goes. If anything arises your suspicions, test then for specifics. A poorly bred dog POTENTIALLY has issues. That isn't always the case. He isn't necessarily doomed. Heck, I can think of MANY danes that are poorly bred and are seniors here on this forum without a problem. Same with supplements. I just don't give supplements unless it is warranted. Sometimes, they can cause more problems then what you were trying to ward off to begin with. If he were my dog, I would just get him insured and watch what happens. Keeping in mind what may happen down the road is one thing, but fretting over it and running all kinds of tests trying to figure out what may or may not happen is a lot of spent energy. I totally understand your concerns, but health testing isn't going to be the future teller that you want it to be. Those results are only good for the day you did them. If his health is good today, I would just relax and enjoy him. RELAAAXXXX ... Rule out parasites now and any obvious issues and then be a vigilant owner to any future problems.

              He is mighty cute!
              Last edited by Angel7292; 07-20-2016, 04:14 PM.
              sigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hiraeth View Post
                His breeders are in Indiana and there are not any GDCA breeders in Indiana, according to the website. I will know more about the breeders as soon as I get his papers and will contact them to ask for more information. I am not too optimistic that I will hear anything back, though
                There are a few good breeders in Indiana. Many belong to their local clubs but not necessarily the GDCA. Somehow I doubt this guy came from one though. There are unfortunately plenty of crappy breeders in this state too

                ETA PM me the breeder when you get his papers if you would. I know of a few crappy breeders and there are even a few in my general area. Just curious to know if he came from,somewhere I know of.
                Last edited by oshagcj914; 07-20-2016, 03:47 PM.
                sigpic
                Chaucey
                Asaah ~ xxx Asaah LaLa, CGC, registered therapy dog

                Comment


                • #9
                  In the second pic, look at the size of his ears compared to Titan's! Pretty striking, and reminds me a lot of Zoomer's puppy days when his ears looked disproportionately big compared to his head, which prompted some people to ask me if he was a hound. I'd believe he is 7 months. You might just have a Phin-sized Dane on your hands in the future. 😊
                  -Lisa (Zoomer's mom)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by lisacp75 View Post
                    In the second pic, look at the size of his ears compared to Titan's! Pretty striking, and reminds me a lot of Zoomer's puppy days when his ears looked disproportionately big compared to his head, which prompted some people to ask me if he was a hound. I'd believe he is 7 months. You might just have a Phin-sized Dane on your hands in the future. ��
                    Now now... don't talk like that is a bad thing! Phin is just perfect at 40" and 190 pounds. He is perfectly perfect! Smaller would have been better, but I love every inch of my beast.

                    Hey, at 7 months Phin was dead in the middle of the average size on the height / weight chart! I wasn't going to mention he just didn't stop growing. Don't scare her like that!! I think MOST danes are amongst the average. I think the ones that aren't, are smaller.

                    Pffttt... Zeph's height and weight is right on for a 7 month old. I'm sure he will stay within average. (Darn you Lisa, you are gonna scare her! haha)
                    Last edited by Angel7292; 07-20-2016, 04:18 PM.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hey, my Finn may have been Phin's size at the same age, but he topped out at 34.5" and 145ish They'll get as big as they're gonna get!
                      sigpic
                      Chaucey
                      Asaah ~ xxx Asaah LaLa, CGC, registered therapy dog

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by oshagcj914 View Post
                        Hey, my Finn may have been Phin's size at the same age, but he topped out at 34.5" and 145ish They'll get as big as they're gonna get!
                        Exactly! It is what it is. Finn is a very average and normal dane then and now.

                        I think most danes end up in the average. Some grow faster, some grow slower, but they will end up somewhere at some point. Don't fret over the size. He is currently very average and there is no reason to believe that wouldn't remain true through adulthood. An average male is a good thing!
                        Last edited by Angel7292; 07-20-2016, 04:17 PM.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Angel7292 View Post
                          Some lines are heavier boned, that doesn't mean he'll be overly large. Some lines are more fine boned, but that doesn't mean they end up small. Who knows. An average male dane is 36" at the withers and at 7 months, he is most certainly on the downhill side of the growth spurt. Phineas also hit 100 pounds the week he turned 6 months old, same as Chaucey's Finn. It's right on schedule for an average size 7 month old. I'd say, if anything, being poorly bred would usually make them smaller in general. Being an average size is a good thing.
                          Titan was 100 lbs at 6 months old, as well. Since Zephyr's hocks and tail were off of the scale and resting on the floor, I'd guess he's really around 115 or maybe a bit more at the moment. If he had any muscle or wasn't a body score of 2.5 (on the 10 point scale), that would probably put him in the 125 range.

                          I think my biggest concern (and indicator that he might be quite tall and have associated health problems), is the current height and the amount of knuckle he has left. I'm not excited about it, but 34.5" is the tallest 7 month old Dane I could find on the "How Big" thread by about half an inch. It's definitely not average. I'm very happy that Suzanne's Eisen was very close to that size and has held steady at his current height! That gives me hope that just because Zeph is super tall now doesn't mean he'll be a super tall adult. I am *really* crossing my fingers that he's a fast grower and his lines stop growth early and he ends up Eisen-size!

                          Originally posted by Angel7292 View Post
                          Radiographs for hips and elbows is pretty extreme for a pet dane. In most instances, it ranges up there close to $700-1000 easily. It requires anesthesia (and it's risks) and they are taken with the dane on his back. You can do it prior to 2 years, but it's recommended to wait until 2 (growth is over). At that point, if the dog is going to be majorly dysplastic, you usually have your signs already. The whole exercise of knocking the dog out and then having the x-rays done will simply tell if you the dog is currently dysplastic for the most part. There are no guarantees. Even a dog with what OFA considers 'fair' hips is within normal range. A dog that is radiographed at the age of 2 that wasn't dysplastic can most certainly have future issues. The key to remember here is that it's a snap shot in time. The most you will learn is if you currently have a problem. It won't speak to the future. You could say that the majority of the dogs who have good hips at 2 won't be dysplastic in the future, but that's not a for sure thing.

                          [snip]

                          I think at 7 months, your best bet is to just provide him good quality food, routine vet care and see how it goes. If anything arises your suspicions, test then for specifics. A poorly bred dog POTENTIALLY has issues. That isn't always the case. He isn't necessarily doomed. Heck, I can think of MANY danes that are poorly bred and are seniors here on this forum without a problem. Same with supplements. I just don't give supplements unless it is warranted. Sometimes, they can cause more problems then what you were trying to ward off to begin with. If he were my dog, I would just get him insured and watch what happens. Keeping in mind what may happen down the road is one thing, but fretting over it and running all kinds of tests trying to figure out what may or may not happen is a lot of spent energy. If his health is good today, I would just relax and enjoy him. RELAAAXXXX ... Rule out parasites now and any obvious issues and then be a vigilant owner to any future problems.

                          He is mighty cute!
                          Most of what I listed was asking which tests I could/should do in the future. I certainly wouldn't run a thyroid or do anesthesia and radiographs on a 7 month old puppy unless there were obvious issues. However, these are considerations that I'm not making for Titan's future, because I have Titan's parent's records and am aware of their health and OFA scores. So this is all 'future planning, what it means to own a Dane with an unknown health background who is on the large side and most likely bred by people breeding for size'-type stuff.

                          Zephyr definitely moves oddly. I'll try to video it, but he paces instead of trotting (you all probably know what I mean, but just in case someone else doesn't, both right legs move forward at the same time, then both left legs move forward at the same time). It could just be a weird movement thing, or it could be an early indicator of a problem. I've never seen another Dane pace. He also has general hind end weakness that we (the vet and I) think is associated with his very poor body condition and musculature, as he didn't display any signs of pain during his physical exam. These things could all sort themselves out, or they may not. Will definitely be keeping a close eye on him as he develops.

                          Thanks for the information and advice! Definitely going to enjoy him and do my best to make sure he receives the best care I can provide.

                          P.S. Is that an Aaron Rodgers reference?
                          Last edited by Hiraeth; 07-20-2016, 04:26 PM.
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by oshagcj914 View Post
                            Hey, my Finn may have been Phin's size at the same age, but he topped out at 34.5" and 145ish They'll get as big as they're gonna get!
                            Titan was on the same exact growth path as Finn and I think is going to end up at the same size. He's 34.5" and 135 lbs at a year of age and I think he might be done. I used to be SO concerned that he wasn't going to hit 36". And now I'm very happy with his size and wouldn't wish him any larger
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by oshagcj914 View Post
                              There are a few good breeders in Indiana. Many belong to their local clubs but not necessarily the GDCA. Somehow I doubt this guy came from one though. There are unfortunately plenty of crappy breeders in this state too

                              ETA PM me the breeder when you get his papers if you would. I know of a few crappy breeders and there are even a few in my general area. Just curious to know if he came from,somewhere I know of.
                              Will do. I'm sure it's going to be some wacky Euro breeder.

                              Originally posted by lisacp75 View Post
                              In the second pic, look at the size of his ears compared to Titan's! Pretty striking, and reminds me a lot of Zoomer's puppy days when his ears looked disproportionately big compared to his head, which prompted some people to ask me if he was a hound. I'd believe he is 7 months. You might just have a Phin-sized Dane on your hands in the future. ��
                              He has the weirdest flipping ears. They do lay nicely sometimes, but when they do the flying nun, they look so ridiculous. Normal ears:



                              I really hope he doesn't grow into them and they remain too big for his head forever. At least if he ends up Phin-sized he'll be able to just stand there while Titan body slams him and bounces off!
                              sigpic

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X