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  • Please Help I am so very confused about food

    Hello everyone, my name is Jessica and I am new. I have a Great Dane puppy who is a few days shy of 4 months named Apollo. I have fallen in love with him. I have been trying to research what the best food is for him and I read one website and it says one thing and the next one says the completely opposite thing. Some really rich Great Dane owner should just fund an actual study on what the best food is and what the criteria is for healthy food.

    I started feeding pro plan large breed puppy as the breeder feed pro plan giant dog. Then we got a bag of science diet as we have been feeding our other animals that. Most of what I have read says these are still low quality so I looked around and found a "health -food" dog food store and she suggest California Natural Herring and Sweet Potato Adult formula which is at 21% Protein and 11% fat and I presume based on their advertising( which is all I really have to go on) that it is a good quality food.

    Do you all have any experience with this brand? Do you think they should be feed under the 24% protein as puppies? Do you think this is too low at 21% and do you think this food is appropriate for a growing Great Dane and if so how much do I feed him?

    Sorry about all the questions but I am new at this - Thanks in advance

  • #2
    California Naturals is a good option for a growing dane puppy.
    Katie & Scarlett
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    • #3
      Welcome to the wonderful world of danes and kibble!

      I'm sure many share your frustration. The topic is very subjective in nature and many people have varying opinions on what the "best" is. A quick glance around the kibble forum and you'll see some of the same names pop up, depending on availability and affordability.
      Some of those recommendations are:
      Evo
      Taste of the Wild
      Orijen
      etc...

      What I can tell you with some certainty is that not one food will work for all dogs, and those with more sensitive stomachs may require some trial and error.
      You will also find a pretty big consensus that feeding anything "puppy based", even large breed, is not recommended due to "slow and steady" nature of growth great danes need.

      You'll also find a large consensus for grain free foods, as these fillers are of little/no nutrienant value to your pup. You end up paying more in the long run as well.

      Is feeding raw an option?
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      • #4
        Evo is not an option for a growing Dane puppy. TOTW and Orijen are both good grain free foods. However, if the OP wants to feed grain inclusive, California Naturals is appropriate for a Dane pup. Just go by the amounts on the bag, and watch to see if there is any weight gain or weight loss, and adjust up or down by half a cup.
        Charlotte, Zack (Blue Harlequin GD), and Grey (Russian Blue mix Cat)

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        • #5
          We feed California Naturals and have since we brought Dreamer home at 8 weeks. We however, use the Chicken and Rice formula.
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          Dreamer, Lennon, and Nathan lounging at Nanny's house.

          Of all the things I've lost...I miss my Danes the most..

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          • #6
            I looked up some info about feeding raw and I got confused. The women who owned the store where I went feed her (toy) dogs raw but what she used was sold in a tube and was extremely expensive. She said she has a friend who has two great Danes who feeds raw but does everything herself by going to food co ops and such. I would be worried that I would mess something up.









            Originally posted by Lars View Post
            Welcome to the wonderful world of danes and kibble!

            I'm sure many share your frustration. The topic is very subjective in nature and many people have varying opinions on what the "best" is. A quick glance around the kibble forum and you'll see some of the same names pop up, depending on availability and affordability.
            Some of those recommendations are:
            Evo
            Taste of the Wild
            Orijen
            etc...

            What I can tell you with some certainty is that not one food will work for all dogs, and those with more sensitive stomachs may require some trial and error.
            You will also find a pretty big consensus that feeding anything "puppy based", even large breed, is not recommended due to "slow and steady" nature of growth great danes need.

            You'll also find a large consensus for grain free foods, as these fillers are of little/no nutrienant value to your pup. You end up paying more in the long run as well.

            Is feeding raw an option?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by jmp4z77 View Post
              I looked up some info about feeding raw and I got confused. The women who owned the store where I went feed her (toy) dogs raw but what she used was sold in a tube and was extremely expensive. She said she has a friend who has two great Danes who feeds raw but does everything herself by going to food co ops and such. I would be worried that I would mess something up.
              From what I know about raw, joining coops or buying from butchers is much less expensive than buying the pre-made or packaged raw stuff.

              As far as confusion goes, these two should help you out:
              Last edited by dolmod; 12-26-2010, 04:03 PM.
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              • #8
                California Natural is a good quality grain inclusive food, but it would not be my top pick unless price was not an issue and allegies were. There are better foods for cheaper. Grain inclusive: I would go with either Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul Large Breed Adult or Canidae ALS. For Grain Free: I would go with either Orijen or Taste of the Wild depending on the price range you are looking to stay in. Both are great quality foods.

                As for protein, Ill re post a previous post that will give you my take on it.

                Well the simple answer to your question is NO, ToTW is not too high in protein or fat. As there is no such thing as too much protein for a growing pup, and the old myth that it caused growth disorders has been debunked many times over the years by vets, scientific studies, and nutrionalists. Before such novel changes were made to the dog food industry, almost all high protein foods were high in calories and mineral contents as the dangers of these were not known or properly research so the average owners of giant breeds and large breed puppies were told to stay clear and the finger was pointed towards protein. Why? It along with fat content were almost always printed on bags, but things like calorie content and mineral contents were often, and in some cases still are, not included on the bags of kibble.

                The long answer is...
                There is no such thing as too much protein in the canine body, and any protein that cannot be used for growth, energy and maintenance is excreted through the kidneys. This is the beauty of our companions tho, they are made to process high amounts of protein and there is absolutely no harm in the excretion of protein through the kidneys in a healthy dog that has healthy and functioning kidneys. Carbohydrates are actually the least effective means of energy in the canine body and are more readily converted to fat and stored within the body. High carbohydrate dog foods are a cheap way to meat the energy requirements of canines in commercial food. While they do make easily digestible energy they are far from the ideal source of energy. They often lead to health issues in dogs such as obesity and when the amount of carbohydrates digested exceed the amount of energy needed by the body it is then converted to fat. This is not the case with proteins that are in excess flushed from the body. Thus showing an advantage to high protein, low carbohydrate foods.

                Here is a break down of the calories per cup for a few different foods:
                TOTW Pacific Stream: 360 cal/c 24%protein
                TOTW High Prairie: 370 cal/c 34% protein
                Eagle Pack Puppy: 377 cal/c 23% protein
                Eagle Pack Hollistic: 403 cal/c 22%protein
                Canidae ALS: 468 cal/c 24% protein
                Orijen 6fish: 460 cal/c 44%protein
                Chicken Soup Adult: 336 cal/c 24% protein
                Acana: 375cal/c 23% protein

                What is interesting to note is that the protein levels are not directly related to the caloric levels in foods. It is everything else in the food that is pushing the caloric intakes up and down. I think this is one of the main reasons that myself and others feel protein is of the lesser importance in food and feeding it properly you are at no more risk then feeding any other food.

                It seems the main cause of true HoD and Hip Dysplasia according to research is caloric intake vs caloric usage. If you are feeding your pup too many calories or supplementing his diet with too many treats/scraps/ supplements you are a likely candidate for growth disorders.

                Much of the old school of thought was protein was the contributing factor to growth disorders. Further testing and research have shown this to be false. The main contributors to growth problems are mineral amounts (calcium and phosphorus) and caloric intake v. caloric usage. Many puppy foods overload their kibbles with calories in attempts to stimulate growth, but with dane puppies you really want a moderate calorie amount and moderate calcium and phosphorus. It has been shown that too little protein can cause more problems than too much. Protein causes muscle growth but has no direct relation to bone growth. If you keep your pup slender and healthy then the stress on the joints should be minimal.

                One thing to consider when looking at no grain foods with higher protein % is your dog is not consuming on average more protein then he would daily on a 22-25% protein kibble. Your dog eats less normally half or 2/3s the amount of a no grain food that he would eat of a grain inclusive food.

                8c grain inclusive at 22% protein and 400cal = 1.76c protein and 3200 calories

                5c grain free at 32% protein and 370cal = 1.6c protein and 1850 calories

                If you are feeding around 9-10 cups you would be feeidng around 6c- 7c TOTW. I personally would not feed more than 7c a day unless my dog was showing weight loss.

                What you find is even tho the protein % is roughly the same daily intake as it is for the grain inclusive you are consuming much less calories. Hence taking some of the stress off your pup's growth. This is because they are getting all the protein and other nutrients they need from a smaller amount of ingested food and none of the waste they get in other foods. Also, meat protein is much easier on the digestive system of a dog than grain proteins. Because of the length of the digestive tract (being short in dogs) they are made to digest meat proteins. Grain proteins take longer in the digestive system to break down and can often lead to a lot of the kibble's grain nutrients never being utilized.

                Also for a long time it was thought that too high of protein actually was a detriment in older dogs because it would hurt the kidneys. Studies actually showed in recent years that was not the case and older dogs need as much or more protein than growing puppies and that there was no detriment to feeding them it.

                As far as why you see the same thing over and over on a lot of websites is because it was standard for so long. Think about something like the common belief that it was needed that you eat fish once a week to be healthy. This was believed and widespread throughout nutrition and then new research was done. They discovered due to mercury levels in the sea this was a horrible idea and you should cut back your fish intake and eat low mercury fish. It took a long time for that the be accepted and I still know families that do not believe it.


                Quote:
                RELATIONSHIP OF NUTRITION TO DEVELOPMENTAL SKELETAL DISEASE IN YOUNG DOGS
                Phillip W. Toll, DVM, MS
                Daniel C. Richardson, DVM, Diplomate ACVS

                Mark Morris Institute, Topeka, Kansas

                Developmental skeletal disease is a group of skeletal abnormalities that affect fast growing, large breed dogs. This is a multifactorial disease that has genetic, environmental, and nutritional components. All of these components will be discussed, however, our focus is nutrition. Nutrient excesses (e.g. Excess mineral supplementation) and rapid growth often exacerbate musculoskeletal disorders. Lack of careful genetic monitoring can result in the introduction and propagation of disorders that are all but impossible to eliminate (e.g. hip dysplasia, patella luxation, osteochondrosis). Trauma, whether obvious (e.g. hit by car) or subtle (e.g. excessive weight) can affect the relatively weak growth centers (e.g. angular limb deformities).
                The musculoskeletal system is in a constant state of turnover or change throughout life, the rate of turnover is of course greatest early in life, during the growth phase. Skeletal growth is most rapid in the first few months of life and slows through the first year until skeletal maturity (about 12 months for most breeds). Because the metabolic activity of the musculoskeletal system is so great during the first 12 months of life, the skeletal system is more susceptible to insult, both physical and metabolic. The physical manifestation of these insults is lameness in the young animal and potentially altered growth which may affect the locomotion and/or soundness of the adult.
                The role of nutrition in developmental skeletal disorders is complex. Rate of growth, specific nutrients, food consumption, and feeding methods have all been shown to influence skeletal disease. The large and giant breeds are the most susceptible to developmental skeletal disease, presumably because of their accelerated growth rate. Dietary deficiencies are of minimal concern in this age of commercial diets specifically prepared for young, growing dogs. Problems associated with dietary excess are far more likely, especially if supplements (minerals, vitamins, and energy) are combined with a high quality growth food. Specific categories of nutrients play a role in developmental skeletal disease. They are discussed below.
                ENERGY
                Rapid growth in large and giant breed dogs increases their risk of skeletal disease. Large and giant breed dogs are genetically programmed to grow at a very fast rate. Excessive dietary energy may support a growth rate that is too fast for proper development of the skeleton. Dietary energy is used by the growing puppy for body maintenance, activity and growth.
                The amount needed for any individual depends on breed, age, neuter status and activity levels. In general, growing puppies require twice as much dietary energy as adults. The need is greatest right after birth and decreases as the dog grows and matures. Because individual needs can vary widely energy or food dose calculations can only be used as general guidelines or starting points that must be modified based on clinical evaluation of each individual.
                The ultimate guide is based on physical evaluation. The ribs should be easily palpable beneath the skin and a thin layer of subcutaneous tissue. An hour glass conformation or waist should be present when viewed from above. Limiting intake to maintain these physical parameters will not impede reaching ultimate genetic potential. It will only reduce intake, fecal production, obesity and lower the risk of skeletal disease. Further research is needed into breed differences in energy requirements.
                PROTEIN
                Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to have any negative consequences on calcium metabolism or skeletal development in the dog. It has been shown in the Great Dane that a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy coming from the protein is marginally sub optimal. When compared to higher protein levels, there was a significant decrease in body weight, plasma albumen and plasma urea. A minimum level of protein in the diet depends on digestibility, amino acid composition, proper ratios among the essential amino acids and their availability from the protein source. Energy density of the food and the physiological state of the dog plays a role as well. A growth diet should contain >25% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value supplying at least 16% of the dietary energy. In the normal dog, dietary protein requirements decrease with age.
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                • #9
                  Great information on puppy food

                  Totally wanted to put this back on the top so I can reference to it esp about protein and puppy food.

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                  • #10
                    Kibble recommendations

                    Hi everyone, we just adopted a 4 year old Great Dane and would like to switch her to a higher quality dog food. She currently eats 9 cups per day of Purina Beneful Original.

                    From what I have gathered from this forum, grain free foods contain more protein and less wasted carbohydrates, and will cost less over time, so they seem to be the preferred choice. However, since our girl already eats 9 cups per day and is a bit on the thin side, I am worried that reducing the number of cups / calories might not be wise. What do you think?

                    Please share anything else that you would be helpful too. Thanks in advance!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bhramaham View Post
                      Hi everyone, we just adopted a 4 year old Great Dane and would like to switch her to a higher quality dog food. She currently eats 9 cups per day of Purina Beneful Original.

                      From what I have gathered from this forum, grain free foods contain more protein and less wasted carbohydrates, and will cost less over time, so they seem to be the preferred choice. However, since our girl already eats 9 cups per day and is a bit on the thin side, I am worried that reducing the number of cups / calories might not be wise. What do you think?

                      Please share anything else that you would be helpful too. Thanks in advance!
                      Here is a link to a whole list of Quality foods/ (2nd page 4th post down) I also Pm'd you a list.
                      Last edited by Purple Raine; 05-18-2011, 12:16 PM.
                      Teresa n
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                      • #12
                        Wow 9 cups per day! You must have a lot of poo to pick up!
                        You will find that switching to a higher quality food will mean that you do not have to feed as much. Beneful is basically corn with a little bit of chicken in it. You want a food that is mostly meat. For instance we feed Taste of the Wild Wetlands and Logan maintains his svelte figure on about 4 cups per day; less if he getting a lot of training treats.
                        Interesting post by Faust earlier in this thread, thanks for resurrecting it.
                        Last edited by thisiscyndi; 05-18-2011, 12:27 PM.
                        "I don’t care if a dog is 150 pounds or 10 pounds, and whether the issue is leash manners or biting visitors. There are no dogs who need a heavier hand—there are only trainers who need more knowledge and a lighter touch." Suzanne Clothier
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                        • #13
                          My girl ate alot and pooped alot on the Gentle Giants Canine Cuisine. It was the food she was fed when I got her. We switched her to Nature's Reciepe, she ate less, but still pooped alot and it was always runny.
                          We decided to go grain free and her poop went solid almost right away. I loved TOTW (Taste of the Wild) but a 35lb bag was about $46 in my area. Diamond makes TOTW and they also make a food identical to their pacific wilderness formula and sell it only at Coscto. It's called Nature's Domain. The 35lb bag is 27.99-31.00 depending on the Costco you get it from. I LOVE IT and so does she. It is an all life stages and perfect for a dane. If you compare ingredients of the TOTW to Nature's Domain, they are identical but you get it half the price!!
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                          xena and her dane friend duchess
                          Heather
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                          • #14
                            Food

                            Hi there.

                            I gave my previous Great Dane both Royal Canine and Pedigree and I currently give Miles Purina Pro Plan Adult Giant Breed; even as puppies I fed them adult. A lot of people like the Raw Food Diet, some like Iams, a lot of people swear by Eagle Pak or Innova. Every dog is different just like every owner is different. Miles is 11 months old, 130 lbs and I only give him 6 cups a day. You can't see any ribs, you can't see his spine, he's moderately active and sometimes he doesn't even eat all of it. I've actually thought about switching him to Raw Food Diet just for variety but why fix what isn't broken, right? And just like someone said previoulsy, the more you feed the more piles of you'll have to pick up!! Good luck!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by oneheatherdiane View Post
                              My girl ate alot and pooped alot on the Gentle Giants Canine Cuisine. It was the food she was fed when I got her. We switched her to Nature's Reciepe, she ate less, but still pooped alot and it was always runny.
                              We decided to go grain free and her poop went solid almost right away. I loved TOTW (Taste of the Wild) but a 35lb bag was about $46 in my area. Diamond makes TOTW and they also make a food identical to their pacific wilderness formula and sell it only at Coscto. It's called Nature's Domain. The 35lb bag is 27.99-31.00 depending on the Costco you get it from. I LOVE IT and so does she. It is an all life stages and perfect for a dane. If you compare ingredients of the TOTW to Nature's Domain, they are identical but you get it half the price!!
                              Nature's Domain is a good kibble and many have very good luck with it but I believe it is important to note that TOTW and Nature's Domain are not identical. Yes they are made by the same company and are similar but Natures Domain is considered a step down from TOTW. It also does not contain as much protein from meat and is lower in calories.
                              Last edited by thisiscyndi; 05-18-2011, 12:59 PM.
                              "I don’t care if a dog is 150 pounds or 10 pounds, and whether the issue is leash manners or biting visitors. There are no dogs who need a heavier hand—there are only trainers who need more knowledge and a lighter touch." Suzanne Clothier
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                              Rocky & Emma
                              Follow our adventures at
                              www.instagram.com/spottedangels

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