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  • Help me decide on future pup!

    Hi guys! Currently we own Tank, an 11 month old merle Great Dane who weighs in at 130lbs. At the time of his purchase, we weren't considering breeding or show quality. We wanted a healthy Dane who we were content on just having as a family pet. My husband fell in love with Tank's coloring (which I admit, is gorgeous) and voila, he is our main man.

    But now we're beginning to consider bringing in another Dane in the spring. I think I may like to get into a breed or show quality Dane, but am having trouble on the best route to go since I am an amateur. I'm interested in Harlequins and solids (blue or blacks). My husband wants to breed Tank (again, he is a merle so I am not sold on this) because he wants Tank's offspring. I understand that he loves our dog very much and I've attempted to explain to him the repercussions of breeding Merles and honestly, I don't think breeding a Merle to any other color would generate a Harlequin or solid that I'm interested in.

    Fawns are too common for my liking. Tank's mother was a gorgeous Fawn, as was his sire but with him being Merle, that tells me his parents were not pure Fawns.

    So, the question is: how do I get started into the Dane world of breed/show quality? What would be the better color choice for my first venture?
    sigpic

  • #2
    Well first off show quality doesn't mean a dog should be bred, there is much more to it, health testing, temperament, pedigree/history, etc. Have you ever shown a dog or done any dog sports before? It's expensive, it involves quite a bit of traveling depending on where you live and you may need to pay a handler. Keep in mind as well a breeder isn't going to sell a show quality dog to someone who "might" want to show and they surely won't want you breeding one of their dogs to whoever you like. You might also have trouble because you have an intact merle pet, it sounds like your dog came from a backyard breeder himself, he's an unshowable color and it would be extremely irresponsible to breed him. My advice would be to fix your dog, get some titles on him and see if it's something you like to do, you can do anything but conformation with him, dock diving, agility, obedience/rally, join a Dane club and get to know people, find a mentor, go to shows, that's how you get a show quality dog. Throw breeding out of your head because you are putting the cart way ahead of the horse.

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    • #3
      First - I would advise you to make sure your husband completely understans that your current dog should never be bred. In fact - I would be sure he is altered PRIOR to bringing another Dane in just to be sure the temptation is not able to be acted upon.

      No matter how wonderful your hubbie thinks your merle dog is - he should be enjoyed as a pet.
      There are HUNDREDS of Danes in rescue...so please don't breed unless you put yourself in a position to do it right... including but not limited to: finding a mentor, training, showing, health screening, researching pedigrees for health and conformation, learning to see the nuances of conformation that make up the breed standard, having enough knowledge and experience to truely support and help puppy buyers, taking back the puppy you bred when he's 6 YEARS old and the owners decide to dump him for a reason you think is ridiculous,...and I'm sure more things I am not thinking of at the moment)

      I don't mean this to sound offensive to you AT ALL - but IMO you have a lot of time, research, and learning to do before you should even think about breeeding.
      Hey - we were all newbies at one point in time:-)
      And breeding responsibly is one of those areas that once you start learning - you realize there is SO MUCH MORE to doing it right Than you can imagine at first thinking of it...

      This is where the idea of buying a show puppy from a responsible breeder who can guide you in the ring and share their years of accumulated knowledge and experience is just beyond invaluable.
      However - an experienced and reputable show breeder is not going to sell you a puppy if there is a chance it will be bred to your merle. Even accidently.

      If you are considering showing - - - when you are new - shows are like a foreign land - - - it really helps to have a guide!

      I would suggest contacting your local GDCA affiliate club http://www.gdca.org/gdclubs.htm
      and go to a meeting or at least email and ask to be put in touch with members in your area who are actively showing and could meet you at a show and would be willing to explain showing to you and perhaps go to lunch and "talk dogs." I would go to many shows before deciding if it is for you. Conformation showing requires more training and is more complicated than it looks. If going to shows to watch is inconvenient, doesn't fit in your family schedule, if you are easily offended or hurt, you need to seriously consider if showing is for you. This is not being judgemental - - - just observing who enjoys and sticks with showing - vs those who I have seen try it and decide it isn't for them.

      There is NOTHING wrong with just really enjoying the your Danes as pets - without the additional expense, effort, and responsibility of breeding.

      But back to your original question: harlequin, (?mantle), black or blue...
      It is all personal preferance - we are always drawn to something for some particular reason...
      I think most show folks will admit that it is easiest to win with a fawn...mostly because there are more established lines that are consistently close to the breed standard, and a bigger gene pool.
      Of the colors you mentioned liking - harlequin is the most difficult for a newcommer to start with...simply because the few puppies with great conformation and striking show markings are often kept by the breeder or go to experienced show homes.
      So far as which is easiest to win with - harl, black, blue...IMO they are fairly equal.

      Here is the scale of points upon which they are all judged in the ring: http://www.gdca.org/scaleofpoints.htm (although IMO headpieces often get more attenion than described in this point scale)
      and if you click on the link at the top of that page - the Illusratated Breed Standard - you can go through how each part of the dog is supposed to look - as well as what some of the faults look like.

      Good luck with the decisions ahead. Sorry about the mini-novel...but this is an important subject to me - having started in Danes with many years of doing rescue, and now showing for several years and planning to breed in the future.
      sigpicNikol Marsh & Glory, Emma, Tycho & Bronte
      Dantrydane's GloryB Gallantree
      Am/Int CH Perlwin's MBN Original Emma V EIO, RN, TT, CGC, TDI
      Int CH Blue Moon's For Game and Glory, CGC, TDI
      Sasdania's Poetry In Motion, RN, CGC

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      • #4
        I would take Tank into the Vet tomorrow for a vasectomy, and play dumb when your hubby wonders why he is shooting blanks. Seriously!!! I really mean soon, becasue he is 11 months and an inexperienced person whould not have an intact male in the home. Your sweet boy can turn real testy, real quick.

        Now, to answer your question about how to get into showing and eventually breeding, the responsible way. The first thing you should do after having Tank nuetered is join a great dane club or an all breed club close to you. The GDC is a great resource for locating a local club, as well as the AKC. Once you start getting involved with a club, you will meet knowledgeable people who will help show you the ropes.

        FYI-Most quality breeders will not sell you a pup with an intact pet dog. They also have waiting lists, so I would recommend you start researching now.
        Good Luck!

        ~Jeanne, Jason & Emily(6)-The Humans~
        Milly-Harl GD,
        Tank, Tigra Cougie & Jax-The Cat Crew
        www.valparasiokennelclub.com

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        • #5
          The why not to breed Tank has been covered so I will just say I totally agree with what others have said.

          If you are looking for a show pup, this spring may be too early. It can take time to build a relationship and get a pup from a breeder that fits with you.

          Also, I would caution adding a new pup as Tank enters his teenager stage...it can be really rough and adding a new puppy would be just that much more stress and work.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by GoingPostal View Post
            My advice would be to fix your dog, get some titles on him and see if it's something you like to do, you can do anything but conformation with him, dock diving, agility, obedience/rally, join a Dane club and get to know people, find a mentor, go to shows, that's how you get a show quality dog. Throw breeding out of your head because you are putting the cart way ahead of the horse.
            BTW - I agree with all of this. Just to add - getting seriously involved with other aspects of dog sports to the level with the training, travel, and committment that it takes to to get at least Novice level titles would also give you an idea of the rhythms of the show world... with the exception that conformation showing is more subjective and you often travel further afield to shows.

            And... your dog will enjoy it!
            sigpicNikol Marsh & Glory, Emma, Tycho & Bronte
            Dantrydane's GloryB Gallantree
            Am/Int CH Perlwin's MBN Original Emma V EIO, RN, TT, CGC, TDI
            Int CH Blue Moon's For Game and Glory, CGC, TDI
            Sasdania's Poetry In Motion, RN, CGC

            Comment


            • #7
              .....
              Attached Files
              sigpic
              Silence is golden..... Duct tape is silver.

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              • #8
                "Tank's mother was a gorgeous Fawn, as was his sire but with him being Merle"



                I do not mean to derail from the original topic or discredit the OP (seeing as my concept of genetic makeup is very limited) But is it even possible for 2 fawns to produce a regular Merle?? this just doesn't sound right to me and I am truly curious??????
                Teresa n
                sigpic

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Purple Raine View Post
                  "Tank's mother was a gorgeous Fawn, as was his sire but with him being Merle"



                  I do not mean to derail from the original topic or discredit the OP (seeing as my concept of genetic makeup is very limited) But is it even possible for 2 fawns to produce a regular Merle?? this just doesn't sound right to me and I am truly curious??????

                  No, two Fawns can't produce a Merle. I would suspect one parent was a Fawn Merle. Adult Fawn Merles a lot of times look very much like a Fawn. Look for Merle "spotting" in the muzzle area or ears that is black on Fawns
                  sigpic
                  Silence is golden..... Duct tape is silver.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yeah two fawns producing a merle would mean somehow the most recessive color somehow produced a black and grey merle. So one of his parents was a non fawn and most likely a standard merle or harlequin and only one parent fawn.
                    Since it's not even clear who your pups sire and dam are I'd go ahead an neuter.
                    Easiest color to show and find a good breeder is fawn.
                    Blue, black and harlequin breeders you have to be careful.
                    2nd easiest color to show is Brindle or Harlequin males.
                    I highly suggest a Brindle since harlequins cost an arm and a leg.
                    I live in Ohio and plenty of shows within driving distance.
                    Best way to find a breeder is to go to shows.
                    Reputation means a lot, if you get a show girl and your Merle knocks her up. No one will respect you. So neuter him if you plan on getting a girl. If you get a male they could hurt each other, one will have to get fixed.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by angeldane View Post
                      Yeah two fawns producing a merle would mean somehow the most recessive color somehow produced a black and grey merle. So one of his parents was a non fawn and most likely a standard merle or harlequin and only one parent fawn.
                      I think your onto something. I didn't think it through enough. Fawn X Fawn Merle would only throw Fawns and/or Fawn Merles, right?
                      sigpic
                      Silence is golden..... Duct tape is silver.

                      Comment


                      • #12

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 6danes View Post
                          I think your onto something. I didn't think it through enough. Fawn X Fawn Merle would only throw Fawns and/or Fawn Merles, right?
                          Yep, so a breeder who says a merle pup had two fawn parents is either dishonest or confused.
                          I remember a while back seeing a litter on puppyfind, all puppies were black but both parents were fawn. I'm wondering what those pups look like now. I'm betting not danes, or stud was a different dog.
                          Some folks intentionally register puppies under a different dog just to get papers.
                          That's why papers don't mean much when pup is from a bad breeder.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by angeldane View Post
                            Some folks intentionally register puppies under a different dog just to get papers.
                            That's why papers don't mean much when pup is from a bad breeder.
                            I have to derail this for a minute. I don;t know if you recall me finding a dead great dane on the railroad tracks behind my house...I searched and searched for a family, only to learn he escaped from a hole BYBer down the road from me. She had recently purchased him to "upgrade" from CKC to AKC pups. I just ripped down a bunch more of her flyers last week...she is now advertising "akc" full registration pups. Word is she is using the dead danes papers...What can I do?(within legal limits, I have already gotten into too much trouble over this)

                            ~Jeanne, Jason & Emily(6)-The Humans~
                            Milly-Harl GD,
                            Tank, Tigra Cougie & Jax-The Cat Crew
                            www.valparasiokennelclub.com

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MillyVanilly View Post
                              (within legal limits, I have already gotten into too much trouble over this)


                              Have you contacted AKC and ask them? If so would did they say?
                              sigpic
                              Silence is golden..... Duct tape is silver.

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