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  • jadasmom.1
    started a topic possible co-own

    possible co-own

    So technically this is not a Dane question but I trust you guys to give me good advice.

    After losing my boy in February we decided if we got another dog in the future we would look at getting a Doberman. I was thinking in a year we could get one. I looked up my local Doberman club and found the VP and secretary live 20 minutes away from me. We met up a few time to talk Dobermans and she was very helpful and honest about the breed. Fast forward to now and she has a litter of dogs. I have been going over to play with the pups and help out (ear care, doing nails, taking them out for socializing) The parents are both grand champions and fully health tested. The pups and parents have wonderful temperments. All this build up to say that she is offering me a show male on a co-own. She would show the dog and pay all the show fees. She is keeping/showing the bitch of the litter so she would just take my boy along with her.
    Are there any potential problems I need to look at in this situation?

  • pdanes
    replied
    Glad to hear it is going so well! I think coowns can be a good thing, but they can also go sour quickly. It's definitely great to have a good relationship with someone before coowning.

    I coowned a bitch and it went very very sour but thankfully her breeder and I were able to work things out that worked for both of us.

    Leave a comment:


  • jadasmom.1
    replied
    update

    I did get the puppy on a co-own. He is 6 months old now and doing very well. It has been nice to have grandma so close as she has watched him for me on a weekend and days when I am gone all day. We discussed all of the things you guys brought up and put them in the contract. I wish I would have discussed training more before we got him as we have a little different views on it. His first show is this weekend and he is doing very well. I am meeting her ringside and she is taking him in. She would really like to mentor me in handling but at this time in my life I cannot commit to taking on one more thing and do it well. Thank you all for you feed back.

    Leave a comment:


  • my3bbdanes
    replied
    Co own thoughts

    In addition to what has been mentioned- I co-owned my first show dog. I trusted the breeder and 10 years later we still have a good relationship.

    Reflecting on being the pet home for a show dog - many times I think you will end up with much more good things than you might expect. Yes - he will be gone to travel, but typically it ends up helping create a more confident well adjusted dog.
    Also - when you travel or have life events and need a place for him to go - you will likely have it based on relationship alone, but you could also build it into the contract.
    If you need help with ear posting etc., the breeder should be able to help vs going to the vet.
    If there are training classes you need to take beyond your normal- decide ahead how that will be handled if expense is an issue.
    The same with show supplies (leads, cool Coates, etc). Does he just use those supplied by the breeder if she will always be the one showing him or will he need his own set.
    Address travel to meet to for him go go to show. Will she pick him up at your home? Do you deliver him to her house? Depending on distance and how often he shows- this could become contentious - so lay it out.

    Co-own points -
    Our contract included a clause that allowed me to alter him at any point with written acknowledgement from her and the allowance for collection at her expence if I chose not to collect him.

    Our contract had an end stated as upon completion of AKC championship or alteration.

    She had the right to use him live cover a on any bitch she owned or co-owned for free, as did I. Any semen I collected was mine exclusively. In the event she had no collection on him, she got one breeding free of charge but she paid all associated expenses.

    He hated to show and did not have a strong enough headpiece to overcome tgat and take majors. He was altered at 2.5 years old.

    Discuss her plan of attack for showing brother and sister. Does she take them out a few times when young to get them acclimated and then every couple of months to meet their head in the game until they are mature and very competitive? What has her past strategy been?

    One last thing to consider is a yearly review of the contract and opportunity to amend.

    Leave a comment:


  • jadasmom.1
    replied
    Thank you all. You have given me some great things to think about. We have not made the contract yet so we are going to sit down and talk out all of these contingencies and put them in writing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Angel7292
    replied
    Originally posted by Loki Love View Post


    You have to have that relationship and trust (and contract) in order to ensure it works for all involved.
    THIS exactly! I've heard many stories from a breeder friend of co-own's that went south and it becomes a pretty big problem. One dane that I am hopelessly in love with and really is one of the few danes I would just die to have a son from, is a co-own that didn't work out well. A beautiful boy that was just amazing in so many ways, but the relationship went south between breeder(s) and pet owner. Last I heard, he wasn't even collected after his CH (might have changed, but I don't think so).

    On the other hand, co-owning is an excellent way to be part of showing without the time, energy and financial investment. A breeder can't keep every show pick from every litter, so this works out very well to get an amazing dane (hopefully) and the breeder gets to use their show pup.

    Truth be told, not every dane (or dobie) will turn out how the breeder hoped. You could end up in a co-own that the breeder decides that the pup just didn't turn out the way they hoped. A co-own gives them the opportunity to have that pup available to them in hopes of showing and breeding. As the pup grows up, it may just turn out that the breeders chooses not to use the pup at all. There is no certainties in any of it. A co-own just gives the breeder access to the pup for showing / breeding if that is the way it goes.

    You also need to agree on breeding issues. For example, what if the pups is never shown to CH, but the breeder wants to use the dog as a stud? What if she wants to collect the dog prior to all the health testing is done and cleared? You could be contracted to things you don't ethically agree with. So it is very important that every eventuality is discussed and decided upon.

    Think it through, lay out clearly the expectations she has of you and you have of her. Then put it all in writing!!! It is a situation that could be mutually beneficial or a giant pain in the ass. It all depends on what she expects and what you are wanting to do.

    With the right breeder, and I can only think of one at this moment, I would co-own. If this one bred the spotted pups I love, I'd co-own with her in a heart beat. Otherwise, I would not with anyone else that I know at the current moment. This is a relationship that you'll have for years upon years with this person. You're not just buying a pup and walking away. There are expectations attached.
    Last edited by Angel7292; 07-07-2016, 06:15 AM.

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  • lisacp75
    replied
    Originally posted by Loki Love View Post
    Loki is/was a co-own situation. It worked out really well for us - we have a great relationship with the breeder. She took care of all show fees - we just had to show up with him, and if we couldn't - she'd make arrangements to try to bring him (if she could). She also never kept him for weeks/months at a time for showing (were that to be the case, I would have reconsidered) Never had an issue - but the contract was also pretty clear as to who was responsible for what. For us - it was a fantastic opportunity to see first hand what all was involved with in showing, without having to show him ourselves. It was a lot of fun! I also really liked the fact we were seeing our breeder quite often and was easy to pick her brain on different things that came up (we were/are first time dog owners, let alone Dane owners!)

    I was concerned about having to keep Loki intact - but even after we stopped showing him, we made the decision with our breeder to keep him intact because of his slight heart murmur and didn't want to risk the surgery at that time. Owning an intact animal doesn't mean it's going to be any more difficult - it's more management if anything, that's all. Sure - temperament issues can pop up, but that can happen with neutered/spayed animals as well. Ultimately, it's something you need to decide if you can live with.

    I would definitely co-own again in the future - with the right breeder. You have to have that relationship and trust (and contract) in order to ensure it works for all involved.
    I agree that an intact male isn't always as much of a handful as one might expect. That said, we are a "one-dog-household." It is obviously harder for those that aren't.

    As far as the co-own, aside from what others have already mentioned, I dunno... I would really miss my dog if he/she were to be taken away and handled by others. I would only consider buying a show dog if the handling was split between myself and the breeder and/or a handler.

    Leave a comment:


  • Loki Love
    replied
    Loki is/was a co-own situation. It worked out really well for us - we have a great relationship with the breeder. She took care of all show fees - we just had to show up with him, and if we couldn't - she'd make arrangements to try to bring him (if she could). She also never kept him for weeks/months at a time for showing (were that to be the case, I would have reconsidered) Never had an issue - but the contract was also pretty clear as to who was responsible for what. For us - it was a fantastic opportunity to see first hand what all was involved with in showing, without having to show him ourselves. It was a lot of fun! I also really liked the fact we were seeing our breeder quite often and was easy to pick her brain on different things that came up (we were/are first time dog owners, let alone Dane owners!)

    I was concerned about having to keep Loki intact - but even after we stopped showing him, we made the decision with our breeder to keep him intact because of his slight heart murmur and didn't want to risk the surgery at that time. Owning an intact animal doesn't mean it's going to be any more difficult - it's more management if anything, that's all. Sure - temperament issues can pop up, but that can happen with neutered/spayed animals as well. Ultimately, it's something you need to decide if you can live with.

    I would definitely co-own again in the future - with the right breeder. You have to have that relationship and trust (and contract) in order to ensure it works for all involved.

    Leave a comment:


  • Angel7292
    replied
    I don't know that 'generous' is the word I would use. In reality, you are doing her a favor. She wants a male show dog, who she will try to finish and then breed. She gets the use of the dog and you pay for all it's care, get to keep it in your home, etc. If anything, you'd be the generous one for the most part. Unless you want to show a dog, then perhaps this would be generous of her to mentor you.

    There are things to consider...

    The contract would have to be very clear on who pays for what, etc. Some breeders require specific food, specific type of care, etc. The breeder should be the one responsible for all the health testing, showing and breeding expenses at bare minimum.

    Some dogs are shown and sometimes spend extended times with handlers at the handlers home. I know some show dogs can end up spending weeks to a month or more before making it home again during busy show seasons.

    You will have to deal with an intact dog. He will stay intact until he is either done being bred or he was collected enough. That can be a problem for some homes. Breeders don't spend the money to show a dog not to breed. That is, for the most part, the point of showing a specific dog.

    Some co-owns have some contract limitations. For example, you can stipulate that there is no natural cover, but instead only collection done. Some co-owns require the 'ok' for a specific breeding from both the breeder and the owner. Some stipulate that once everything is done, the collection is done, dog is neutered and you go on your merry way with your dog and it becomes a full ownership. Etc. Etc.

    There is lots to think about having a co-own. Just depends on what you want out of the dog and if you think the arrangement she proposes is worth the time and effort by you. If you want to show yourself, then perhaps it is a good arrangement for you.
    Last edited by Angel7292; 07-06-2016, 03:32 PM.

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  • jadasmom.1
    replied
    Thanks, the contract has not been written yet. She has been showing Dobes for 15 years but this is her first ever litter so she doesn't have a standard contract. She had more show homes lined up but they were looking for girls and they only had one girl pup.

    My husband is worried that it will be a lot more hassle than it we just got a pup as strictly companion. I think it is a very nice dog and a extremely generous offer for her to show him and pay all the fees.

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  • oshagcj914
    replied
    I don't know of any potential problems, but Id want to take a look at the contract she has for co-owns and make sure everything is covered, like who pays for medical care if he's injured at a show or something, will he be bred, etc.

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