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What does a temperament guarantee cover?

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  • What does a temperament guarantee cover?

    I notice that most good breeders offer, among other things, a "temperament guarantee" - but there is not much detail about what is meant by this point, or how it might work in a real-world situation.

    What would be an example of a bad temperament in a Dane that would invoke a breeder guarantee? I guess the underlying question is: how much of temperament comes from breeding and the first six or so weeks of handling, and how much is due to owner handling and training?

  • #2
    Firstly, breeder contracts are pretty rarely truly enforceable. Unless you trust your breeder implicitly to be honorable, it will take a long court process to get anything out of a dishonest breeder, and most people aren't going to go through that trouble.

    I read a pretty good explanation of nature versus nurture a while ago. Hopefully I don't butcher it by trying to explain it.

    Let's say all dogs are born on a scale of 1-10, as far as temperament goes. 1 being neurotic, aggressive, fearful, anxious, etc. And 10 being stable, bomb proof, uber friendly, etc.

    With good handling, a dog who is born at a 1 can probably be raised to a 3-4, but will never be a 10. With bad handling, a dog born at a 10 can be lowered to a 7-8, but will probably never drop much below that.

    Most dogs are somewhere in the middle of that scale, and can be raised and lowered accordingly.

    Good training/handling is really important, don't get me wrong, and can help modify a dog's personality and reactions to its environment. However, puppies are NOT blank slates as so many people like to advertise, and the personalities they are born with greatly impact what kind of dog they turn into.

    Personality issues a breeder may cover contractually include severe anxiety and rage syndrome. But the contract is so subjective that I don't really take temperament guarantees very seriously.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Hiraeth View Post
      Firstly, breeder contracts are pretty rarely truly enforceable. Unless you trust your breeder implicitly to be honorable, it will take a long court process to get anything out of a dishonest breeder, and most people aren't going to go through that trouble.

      I read a pretty good explanation of nature versus nurture a while ago. Hopefully I don't butcher it by trying to explain it.

      Let's say all dogs are born on a scale of 1-10, as far as temperament goes. 1 being neurotic, aggressive, fearful, anxious, etc. And 10 being stable, bomb proof, uber friendly, etc.

      With good handling, a dog who is born at a 1 can probably be raised to a 3-4, but will never be a 10. With bad handling, a dog born at a 10 can be lowered to a 7-8, but will probably never drop much below that.

      Most dogs are somewhere in the middle of that scale, and can be raised and lowered accordingly.

      Good training/handling is really important, don't get me wrong, and can help modify a dog's personality and reactions to its environment. However, puppies are NOT blank slates as so many people like to advertise, and the personalities they are born with greatly impact what kind of dog they turn into.

      Personality issues a breeder may cover contractually include severe anxiety and rage syndrome. But the contract is so subjective that I don't really take temperament guarantees very seriously.

      I think you explained it really well. That was what I was taught as well, that dogs and people are born with their genetics. You're born with your nature, and nurture can either improve or damage what you're born with. Either way, you are limited by your genetics but it can be modified a bit with nurture.
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      Peach, merle Great Dane
      Born July 7 2014
      Peach & Emily!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by emeko View Post
        I think you explained it really well. That was what I was taught as well, that dogs and people are born with their genetics. You're born with your nature, and nurture can either improve or damage what you're born with. Either way, you are limited by your genetics but it can be modified a bit with nurture.
        Agreed It really irritates the living crap out of me when people get breeds notorious for certain issues, like bullies and DA or Filas and HA, and think "oh, I'll just socialize him and then he'll be fine".

        No. That's not how any of this works.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Hiraeth View Post
          Firstly, breeder contracts are pretty rarely truly enforceable. Unless you trust your breeder implicitly to be honorable, it will take a long court process to get anything out of a dishonest breeder, and most people aren't going to go through that trouble.

          I read a pretty good explanation of nature versus nurture a while ago. Hopefully I don't butcher it by trying to explain it.

          Let's say all dogs are born on a scale of 1-10, as far as temperament goes. 1 being neurotic, aggressive, fearful, anxious, etc. And 10 being stable, bomb proof, uber friendly, etc.

          With good handling, a dog who is born at a 1 can probably be raised to a 3-4, but will never be a 10. With bad handling, a dog born at a 10 can be lowered to a 7-8, but will probably never drop much below that.

          Most dogs are somewhere in the middle of that scale, and can be raised and lowered accordingly.

          Good training/handling is really important, don't get me wrong, and can help modify a dog's personality and reactions to its environment. However, puppies are NOT blank slates as so many people like to advertise, and the personalities they are born with greatly impact what kind of dog they turn into.

          Personality issues a breeder may cover contractually include severe anxiety and rage syndrome. But the contract is so subjective that I don't really take temperament guarantees very seriously.
          That is how I've seen human nature vs nurture explained too, like for intelligence. Nature sets a range of possible values, nurture can move it up and down within that range.

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          • #6
            Okay, thanks. I thought it was a pretty vague term and claim, a bit like all those phrases used car dealers throw in to pad out a listing.

            I can see a quality breeder taking a claim of excessive anxiety or viciousness/rage seriously, but everything else would fall into a he said/they said kind of canyon.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by DanePillow View Post
              Okay, thanks. I thought it was a pretty vague term and claim, a bit like all those phrases used car dealers throw in to pad out a listing.

              I can see a quality breeder taking a claim of excessive anxiety or viciousness/rage seriously, but everything else would fall into a he said/they said kind of canyon.
              I wonder if the guarantee just means they'll take the puppy back if it isn't a good fit with your family? Like if you have kids, and it turns out the dogs doesn't do well with them.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by DanePillow View Post
                Okay, thanks. I thought it was a pretty vague term and claim, a bit like all those phrases used car dealers throw in to pad out a listing.

                I can see a quality breeder taking a claim of excessive anxiety or viciousness/rage seriously, but everything else would fall into a he said/they said kind of canyon.
                Even excessive anxiety can fall into a canyon. Everyone defines 'excessive' differently. Rage syndrome isn't even that 'provable'. And the breeder can always claim in court that the way the puppy was handled in the new home caused the issue - most judges will not be able to discern the difference between genetic and nurture-related behavioral issues.

                And then the breeder can turn around and slap you with a defamation lawsuit.

                Health contracts are easier and (if written well) pretty black and white. Either the puppy has HD or it doesn't. Either it has scrolled cartilage or it doesn't. I saw someone having troubles the other day because their contract says the puppy has to have "crippling HD" to be covered. As soon as subjective terms are added, the contract is near useless.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hiraeth View Post
                  Agreed It really irritates the living crap out of me when people get breeds notorious for certain issues, like bullies and DA or Filas and HA, and think "oh, I'll just socialize him and then he'll be fine".

                  No. That's not how any of this works.
                  Yeah. I find most people tend to count on nurture too much and discount nature too much.
                  sigpic

                  Peach, merle Great Dane
                  Born July 7 2014
                  Peach & Emily!

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                  • #10
                    One of my biggest pet peeves is when Pit obsessed people (and I don't mean true breed advocates) always chirp the "It's how you raise them!" line. Do they not realize that if that were true, all those Vick dogs should have been put to sleep and never ever given a chance because look how they were "raised". A whole bunch of them were rehabbed enough to live some semi-normal lives.
                    ~ Lisa & Rupert

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