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The Truth about OFA Testing?

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  • The Truth about OFA Testing?

    I was just browsing and found a Rodesian Ridgeback breeder with a large question and answer section, some of which was a bout OFA. I have permission from the breeder to post the section about OFA testing. Some interesting points were brought up and though I'm not jumping to believe everything said by this breeder, (especially since I was linked to the site from the website of probably one of the biggest Great Dane BYBs I've ever seen) I was wondering if some of it is true. Just wanted to open up discussion on the following:

    "Q. Will getting a puppy from a Sire and Dam with an approved OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) hip rating protect my puppy from a risk of getting Hip Dysplasia ?

    A. Absolutely not, it may actually do the opposite and result in a pup with bad hips. An acceptable OFA rating of the parents, the grandparents, the great-grandparents, the great-great-grandparents and to infinity, BY THEMSELVES, is almost worthless. What is important is the status of the siblings of the pup and the siblings of all these ancestors. The following is a quote from the OFA website. “For example; a dog with fair hips but with a strong hip background and over 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a good breeding prospect. A dog with excellent hips, but with a weak family background and less than 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a poor breeding prospect”. In other words, it possible to have an excellent rated dog that should NOT be used for breeding and at the same time have a dog with poor rated hips be a good choice for a breeder. From that statement alone it should be obvious the rating, by itself, is of no use to a potential puppy buyer. In the same vein, a rating is also useless to the breeder unless they implement the entire protocol.

    Q. How are OFA rating supposed to be used?

    A. To properly use the OFA ratings, the breeder must know the OFA ratings for the Sire and Dam, for ALL of the siblings of both the Sire and Dam, for All four Grandparents, and ALL of the Grandparents' siblings, for ALL eight Great-grandparents and for ALL of the Great-grandparents' siblings. These OFA ratings must then be placed in a "vertical pedigree" and calculated to determine whether or not a dog should be bred. Assuming that each animal is only bred once and each litter has 10 pups, that is a minimum of 140 dogs with OFA ratings that the breeder must have recorded. What is important is that the mass quantity of dogs in that list be free of Hip Dysplasia. Since Hip Dysplasia has both an nutritional and complex genetic components, it is very possible to have a dog with excellent hips whose entire genetic makeup is composed of dogs with horrible hips(and such a dog will throw pups with bad hips). Its for that reason that any individual dog’s OFA rating is a worthless predictor of Hip Dysplasia and it is also the reason why it takes so much information to attempt to make the OFA protocol work. In fact, it requires such a large amount information to do the ratings properly that I doubt if ANY show breeder has successfully implemented the protocol. If you desire more information check out the following document on the OFA website BREEDERS GUIDE TO DATA. ( http://www.offa.org/hovanart.pdf )

    Q. If the OFA rating of any individual dog is worthless, why do breeders and breed clubs push the ratings?

    A. The obvious answer is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions; it’s the same path that destroys a breed by focusing on form over function. Unfortunately, very few breeders have any sort of scientific training and just don’t understand what is required to implement the OFA protocols.. Those few that do understand the science involved know they don’t have enough dogs or historical data to make the system work. However, what most breed clubs and breeders do understand is fashion and political correctness, and they want to be seen as attempting to address the "problem" (the fact that Hip Dysplasia is not an issue in the Ridgeback population as a whole is beside the point). Unfortunately, improperly selecting against one genetic component unnecessarily jeopardizes the gene pools diversity. It is just another shameful example of how selecting for "looks" and "appearances" can destroy a breed. Moreover, for the truly Evil breeders, they can find the one dog in a lineage of unbreedable dogs that has an excellent OFA hip rating and breed it. By doing so, they hide their lineages’ genetic flaws long enough to make a sale to an unwitting and uninformed customer. Eventually the offspring comes down with Hip Dysplasia, and by that time the customer is stuck with a sick dog. These very same breeders will then require you to return or destroy that pet to get any “warranty” relief, knowing full well that any loving owner would never do such a thing. And while this may be bad enough for any individual owner, should the dog be unfortunate enough to be a confirmation champion, these bad genes will be spread widely in the breed.

    Q. How can I protect my self from ignorant or unscrupulous breeders using the OFA ratings to make poor breedings or even scamming me?

    A. Fortunately if you have read all of this FAQ you know what questions to ask. If the breeder claims to use the OFA protocol, ask to see the “vertical pedigrees” and have them explain how the OFA protocol works. If they don’t know what you’re talking about and can’t provide you with the data and answers, then you can be sure they are either ignorant or trying to con you. In either case be very wary. The thing to really watch out for is a breeder who understands the system, uses the ratings on a few dogs, but does not implement the system. In such a case, the only legitimate reason to do an OFA screening on a dog is as a medical diagnostic tool to confirm a suspected case of Hip Dysplasia. Otherwise you should suspect that they are just doing it to fool the customer into a false sense of security, or in the worst case they are purposefully misusing the OFA ratings to hide bad lineages and con the customer.

    Q. What are the OFA ratings of your dogs?

    A. Our dogs don’t have Hip Dysplasia, therefore there has been no medical diagnostic reason to test them. Furthermore, we do not own and breed a huge number of dogs, hence there is no scientific method for us to properly implement the OFA breeding protocol and therefore there is no reason for us to have the dogs OFA rated. And finally, we are not going to have a medical procedure done on our dogs that involves anesthesia, constraint, contorting the dog and taking X-rays just to give uninformed customers a false sense of security.

    Q. Is there any way I can test my potential puppy directly for hip problems?

    A. Yes, there is the PennHIP method that can be used on pups as young as 16 weeks of age. Using this method will at a minimum give you some direct risk assessment of your potential puppy’s susceptibility to getting Hip Dysplasia. http://www.vet.upenn.edu/research/centers/pennhip/ "
    ~* Haley & Riley *~

    "Things that upset a Terrier may pass virtually unnoticed by a Great Dane."
    -- Smiley Blanton

  • #2
    I wish you would have posted the entire Q&A from them.

    Out of all of this, the one thing that really makes me wonder is their claim that none of their dogs have HD, but yet to know, you would have to test, which they don't. So they really don't know-do they.

    I am also suspect of breeders that speak of the "hate mail" they receive. Really love their discount section too.

    Just remember that anyone can write anything they want on their sites to justify their actions
    Last edited by dolmod; 08-31-2008, 08:37 AM.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Fawnaquin View Post
      Q. What are the OFA ratings of your dogs?

      A. Our dogs don’t have Hip Dysplasia, therefore there has been no medical diagnostic reason to test them. Furthermore, we do not own and breed a huge number of dogs, hence there is no scientific method for us to properly implement the OFA breeding protocol and therefore there is no reason for us to have the dogs OFA rated. And finally, we are not going to have a medical procedure done on our dogs that involves anesthesia, constraint, contorting the dog and taking X-rays just to give uninformed customers a false sense of security.

      "[/I]

      They lost me when I got to this part.

      How do they know their dogs don't have it. Like they said two excellents can produce a pup with HD. What if they kept one of those pups and bred it later. They wouldn't know if they didn't test it (OFA or Pennhip).

      There are some vets that don't put the dogs under anesthesia or constraints when taking xrays.

      Regards,
      Renee
      http://californiadreaminggreatdanes.com/

      "Being kind is much more important than being right. Sometimes, what a person needs is not a brilliant mind that speaks, but a patient heart that understands." ~Unknown

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      • #4
        OFA testing

        Actually, I don't find that much wrong with what you posted except I in no way feel breeders are OFA'ing their dogs in order to dupe the puppy buyers. When I was breeding I did OFA. It was for myself, not anyone else. I was in on the ground floor of OFA. I feel at that time we thought it was the answer to our prayers concerning HD. Danes were badly dysplastic at that time but we were all feeding high protein kibble, not knowing any better and I feel that was more the problem than genetics. Here it is 40 years later and we still have HD in spite of X-raying. It is not a totally genetic problem. I don't feel most breeders can be sure every puppy they sell is going to be OFA'd thus it's almost impossible to keep tract of the hip ratings of all the pups you breed. You have a better chance of a puppy not having HD if you will buy from a breeder that X-rays than if you don't. None of the health tests guarantee that a pup you buy won't come up with the problems but it narrows the odds.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by dolmod View Post
          Really love their discount section too.
          Yeah, that really rubed me the wrong way. I have no clue what that has to do with puppy prices.

          ETA: Though, regardless of whether this Ridgeback breeder is reputable or not, what I'm really wondering is if a Dane breeder doesn't OFA could they still be a high-quality reptable breeder?
          Last edited by Fawnaquin; 08-31-2008, 08:47 AM.
          ~* Haley & Riley *~

          "Things that upset a Terrier may pass virtually unnoticed by a Great Dane."
          -- Smiley Blanton

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          • #6
            OFA testing

            Some breeds just don't have problems with HD so the breeders don't bother X-raying. Maybe that breed is one of them. I don't know. But no, you can't tell for sure unless you do X-ray.

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            • #7
              I liked Carol's reply.

              Its my understanding that development can be altered by enviroment, and I thought it was determined that good/bad hips are a polygenic gamble at best.

              Its very interesting how little many breeders know about the actual genetics and OFA protocols.
              This came up recently when a two year old dog was offered for sale (diff breed) and the dog was described as "OFA Borderine" (suggested retesting in a few months).
              We were surprised when many people inquiring about the dog believed that regardless of excellent pedigree and ability, "OFA borderline" meant "practically crippled".
              And these were people who should have known better.

              Randa
              PS- I didn't visit this ridgeback breeders site, but kudos to a breeder who is willing to have their opinions and practices discussed.
              Randa

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Fawnaquin View Post
                Yeah, that really rubed me the wrong way. I have no clue what that has to do with puppy prices.

                ETA: Though, regardless of whether this Ridgeback breeder is reputable or not, what I'm really wondering is if a Dane breeder doesn't OFA could they still be a high-quality reptable breeder?

                Back in the day {many moons ago} some breeders didn't trust OFA because back then it was easy to take a "ringer" in, have an xray done, pass OFA..and there was no way to truely identify the dog tested. That has all changed now. I used a very qualified radiologist {sp?} to rate my dogs and he was always spot on with his opinions.

                Also am I to understand a big time BYB linked to this?? If so..I'd really consider the source.

                Dee
                sigpic

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                • #9
                  I use PennHip or an ortho vet team in Ohio for X Rays for Me
                  sigpicLisa
                  www.xceldanes.com

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Devil Dog View Post
                    Also am I to understand a big time BYB linked to this?? If so..I'd really consider the source.
                    The way I came across the ridgeback site is through a link on a really bad BYB's site (one from texas who proclaims she's not a dog "racist" and produces "designer" color Danes, for those of you who know who I'm talking about). This Dane breeder put the ridgeback Q & A as a link under the title "OFA". So although the Dane breeder linked to the Ridgeback site just as a way to justify not health testing, I don't know if that comments on the credibility of the ridgeback breeder.
                    ~* Haley & Riley *~

                    "Things that upset a Terrier may pass virtually unnoticed by a Great Dane."
                    -- Smiley Blanton

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                    • #11
                      They do get Elbow & Hip Dysplasia
                      http://www.rhodesianridgebackhealth....icdesease.html

                      Regards,
                      Renee
                      http://californiadreaminggreatdanes.com/

                      "Being kind is much more important than being right. Sometimes, what a person needs is not a brilliant mind that speaks, but a patient heart that understands." ~Unknown

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                      • #12
                        It sounds like the whole Q & A section is just an excuse for them to not OFA check their dogs...by illustrating why the system is only beneficial if "140 dogs" are tested, they seem more reasonable for opting out of OFA testing. Seem like a BYB in sheep's clothing to me...
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                        Paisley

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by danedaddy View Post
                          It sounds like the whole Q & A section is just an excuse for them to not OFA check their dogs...by illustrating why the system is only beneficial if "140 dogs" are tested, they seem more reasonable for opting out of OFA testing. Seem like a BYB in sheep's clothing to me...
                          That was my first impression too. But if what they're saying is true, and 140 dogs minimum must be tested for the system to be beneficial, then is there really no point to OFA testing anyway?
                          ~* Haley & Riley *~

                          "Things that upset a Terrier may pass virtually unnoticed by a Great Dane."
                          -- Smiley Blanton

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                          • #14
                            While OFA and PennHip aren't perfect they are all we have right now. Despite the imperfections it is still a good screening tool, it does help to weed out those dogs that have a known problem, it gives breeders a palce to start, something to work with..personally I think even pets should be OFA/PennHip.
                            If a breeder is going to be breeding responsibly then perfect or not they should impliment OFA/PennHip on all dogs they are looking at for a breeding program..this is only a part of the package in determining breeding dogs but it imo is a very important part.

                            Dale
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                            High Hopes Great Danes & German Shorthairs

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                            • #15
                              Some valid points were made; yet others totally off the mark and IMO an indicator of a breeder to steer clear of.

                              -I agree that the more dogs in an OFA vertical ped the better. Having 1 or 2 dogs OFA'd--even if they are sire and dam--does not provide a well-rounded perspective.

                              -I agree with their statement, " The thing to really watch out for is a breeder who understands the system, uses the ratings on a few dogs, but does not implement the system.". I totally agree, as this seems to be the rage nowadays with BYB'ers.

                              -I do not feel it is necessary to have the results of every single sibling, ancestor, etc. on hand to make a fairly decent breeding decision.

                              -Re their statement "Since Hip Dysplasia has both an nutritional and complex genetic components, it is very possible to have a dog with excellent hips whose entire genetic makeup is composed of dogs with horrible hips(and such a dog will throw pups with bad hips)" - According to knowledgeable medical experts, this statement is inaccurate on different levels. From an excellent 8-part series on Canine Hip Dysplasia by Susan Thorpe-Vargas Ph.D. and John Cargill MA, MBA, MS (link: http://www.chromadane.com/VARGAS6.htm):

                              "Genetics is the foremost causative factor of canine hip dysplasia. Without the genes necessary to transmit this degenerative disease, there is no disease. Hip dysplasia is not something a dog gets; it either is dysplastic or it is not. An affected animal can exhibit a wide range of phenotypes, all the way from normal to severely dysplastic and functionally crippled. Hip dysplasia is genetically inherited.

                              While environmental effects, to include nutrition and exercise, may play a part in mitigating or delaying the onset of clinical signs and clinical symptoms hip dysplasia remains a genetically transmitted disease. Only by rigorous genetic selection will the incidence rate be reduced. In the meantime, it makes sense to have lean puppies that are exercised regularly and to avoid breeding any animals from litters that showed signs of hip dysplasia."
                              ------------------

                              -Their statement, "Our dogs don’t have Hip Dysplasia, therefore there has been no medical diagnostic reason to test them"--has to be one of the biggest 'red flags' in this article. Since a dog can have HD and not manifest any symptoms, if you don't test, you don't know. Something they obviously "should" have known since they are the 'experts' on hip testing.

                              I definitely agree with Dale, OFA/PennHip isn't perfect, but it's a start. It's a useful tool in the process of making breeding decisions.

                              To summarize I have to say that although the RR breeder made a few valid points, IMO they did their breed...and all breeds that utilize OFA...a disservice in trying to influence puppy buyers that OFA/hip testing isn't a necessary thing to look for in a good breeder.
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