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  • SpecialK4182
    started a topic Genetic test for bloat risk factors

    Genetic test for bloat risk factors

    Has anyone tried the genetic test referenced in this study?

    https://greatdanegnosis.wordpress.co...-breakthrough/

    If this is true, it is really great news. I am seriously considering paying the $65 for the test through VetGen. Egon just got home from having a lap assisted pexy and neuter and the doctor that performed the surgery noted that he was pretty stressed before the surgery (which would be expected), and there was a decent amount of gas in his stomach during the procedure. This study talks about a potential link between IBD and the risk alleles that this test tests for. Egon has had poop issues pretty much from the day we brought him home at 8 weeks and I would not be surprised if he tests positive for these alleles. I am just wondering if anyone else has had this test done. The link is below.

    https://www.vetgen.com/canine-gdv.html

  • oceanbluedanes
    replied
    Originally posted by SpecialK4182 View Post
    I ended up ordering the kit since it's so affordable and only became available thru VetGen a couple weeks ago. I figure if it is legitimate, I learn if Egon us at a higher risk for bloat. If it's not, I can at least give my feedback to other Dane parents. Win, win.
    Did you ever get results for this and what were they if you don't mind sharing?

    Leave a comment:


  • maggies
    replied
    As someone who nearly lost my beloved dog a few weeks ago, I will always pexy from now on. Our puppy had a pexy done with her spay. She literally recovered in 2 days. The pexy and spay cost around $1200.

    Our male dog (who had not had a pexy since he was a show dog and had not been neutered) nearly died, spent about 2 weeks recovering from emergency surgery and it cost about $4000.

    Just sharing my story as I have seen both sides of the coin. I would not risk all of the heartache and expense on the results of a new unproven test. Just my 2 cents.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shamu
    replied
    this topic is 'hard subject' for me.

    First because we were part of the study - and I would rather be in *other* (none-IBD/none-bloat) part of that study! And because the study didn't get the results I was hopeful for. Since they started to look at link between IBD and bloat, I was hopeful they'll find genetic markers for IBD; but at least by now, there is no progress in that direction AFAIK.

    Also because seeing the dog in bloat, waiting while she was in surgery and not knowing what results are going to be; sitting with her as she was recovering, all that time thinking that none of this would have been happening now if we did pexi her! I didn't pexi her because I knew any surgery was a big risk for her; she never was 'a healthy dog'. But if you compare risks...

    Pexi, as ANY surgery, is a risk - but it's planned, done when dog is healthy, with vet you trust

    Bloat surgery... usually it happens when the dog is older, so higher risk just by that. Than depending how fast it was progressing, how soon you got the dog to the vet, how soon they were able to start the surgery -how much damage is done already; all that make the risk so much higher! Not to mention it usually happens off-hours, so e-vet is the only option!

    (oh and don't even want to compare the price of pexi vs emergency bloat surgery.)

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  • Angel7292
    replied
    Originally posted by SuzanneRM82 View Post
    Probably not. After she saw him in August, his breeder suggested waiting as long as we can before neutering him. I want to get him tacked (as does she) ASAP though. He has a littermate who has already torsioned and been whisked off to the e-vet in a panic. This whole bunch seems to be super slow to mature, and paired with the concern about bloat related emergencies outweighs the need to keep the surgeries together. Mom also bloated awhile after Shark's crew was born, and I think there's a grandpa on her side who died (granted, late it life, but still) from bloat related complications.

    Yup, sounds like it would be better to do it sooner, rather then later. With all those dogs in the line, sounds like a gastropexy is your best bet. Although preferred to do it as one surgery, for a healthy boy like Shark, it shouldn't be a problem to do them at separate times.

    Phineas has had some bloating issues. I've actually narrowed it down to a very specific people food that I've randomly handed him a small piece as a treat. It was a lot easier then it sounds, because I kept a lot of notes and saved text messages about it and I was able to pinpoint a food in common from each incident. I have narrowed it down farther to a specific brand. Other then a random upset tummy, Phin hasn't had a problem with a bloat-y belly since our last big incident with that one food and we saw the pattern. *knock on wood*. It's been a couple years though. I've been VERY grateful for his pexy.

    Phin is a very funny dog and actually cues when he is sick. If it be his tummy, his back or a thorn in his toe.. he has a very specific sick cue. He refuses to lay on his bed and he closes a bedroom door... over and over again. When he injured his back, I couldn't even get it all the way open before he would close it again. I have no idea why he does this or how he happened on to this but it's his thing. He doesn't want the door to remain closed either. He'll kick it until you open it again. He just wants to push it closed. You always know when he is feeling better because he will leave the door alone. He has even gotten up in the middle of the night and closed the door because he was sick (liquid poo night). It is very specific and he does it ONLY when sick. If Phin closes the door, we are all on high alert and gas meds are at the ready.

    His momma died a couple years ago from GDV at the age of 5. I don't put a lot of stock in genetics with her because of how it went down. It's quite a long story, but the gist of it is that she died after a long travel. It was decided during surgery that the damage was too great to overcome. She died on the operating table.

    Too much unknown and too many variables come into play as to the cause. With all the circumstances surrounding sharkie-boy and his litter / mother / line, I think you doing his pexy by itself to get it done sooner is probably a good thing. It comes with a small bit of relief that you've bought yourself some valuable time in case of an emergency.
    Last edited by Angel7292; 10-03-2016, 09:04 PM.

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  • SuzanneRM82
    replied
    Originally posted by Angel7292 View Post
    Priorities!

    Live by the seat of your well made pants... assume the worst, hope for the best. And get Shark's pexy done too. Are ya neutering him at the same time?
    Probably not. After she saw him in August, his breeder suggested waiting as long as we can before neutering him. I want to get him tacked (as does she) ASAP though. He has a littermate who has already torsioned and been whisked off to the e-vet in a panic. This whole bunch seems to be super slow to mature, and paired with the concern about bloat related emergencies outweighs the need to keep the surgeries together. Mom also bloated awhile after Shark's crew was born, and I think there's a grandpa on her side who died (granted, late it life, but still) from bloat related complications.

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  • 21softballstar
    replied
    Originally posted by Hiraeth View Post
    I'm actually not all that trusting of pexies. The scar tissue can form improperly or be torn, the spleen can still torsion even if the stomach is pexied, the pexy can be performed improperly and the stomach can be tacked in the wrong spot... I know someone who lost a young and healthy dog to an elective pexy complication. And someone else who lost their pexied dog to GDV with splenic torsion. I know several good breeders who do not pexy their dogs and are very comfortable with that decision.
    .
    I agree with you on this . A few years ago my dad lost his Mantle girl Roxy because of the pexy procedure. One of the sutures in her stomach tore the day after surgery before we even picked her up from the vet. It leaked the contents of her stomach throughout her entire abdomen, and she died a few hours later. She was one year and five days old.

    That's why I would never ever pexy unless I knew for a fact my dog had a very high chance of getting bloat. 1 and 5 Danes get bloat--I get that. And pexies don't prevent bloat either. Nothing prevents bloat. You can have a super calm dog and it relaxes in a cage for an hr after eating and it can STILL get bloat, but if there was even a slight chance that my specific dog, according to this test, had a higher risk than Dog B, yeah, I'd be going with the pexy, but I'd still take every precaution possible for the dog that did get pexied AND for the dog that didn't who apparently had a lower chance according to this test.

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  • Angel7292
    replied
    Originally posted by SuzanneRM82 View Post
    Hahaha you sure know how to talk me out of something in a hurry! I'm not really that curious about Ferg, but some of Shark's line makes me wonder. $65 for just one would be a bit easier dose of curiosity to stomach lol.
    Priorities!

    Live by the seat of your well made pants... assume the worst, hope for the best. And get Shark's pexy done too. Are ya neutering him at the same time?

    Leave a comment:


  • Angel7292
    replied
    Originally posted by Hiraeth View Post
    I'm actually not all that trusting of pexies. The scar tissue can form improperly or be torn, the spleen can still torsion even if the stomach is pexied, the pexy can be performed improperly and the stomach can be tacked in the wrong spot... I know someone who lost a young and healthy dog to an elective pexy complication. And someone else who lost their pexied dog to GDV with splenic torsion. I know several good breeders who do not pexy their dogs and are very comfortable with that decision.

    Those are all anecdotal, and not reasons to NOT to pexy, but those are all considerations that I don't see people talk about very frequently. I think it's a wonderful procedure, but I think it's heavily pushed without mention of all of the potential downsides. I've seen people on the FB group downright insulted and called irresponsible for opting against the procedure.

    At the end of the day, the only thing that's going to help prevent a dog from bloating and dying is vigilance, recognition of the signs and rushing the dog to a vet. And at the end of the day, what I support is people being informed and educated and using the information and education they have to make the decision they feel is best for their particular dog and their particular situation. If someone is doing that, then no one else should be questioning or insulting their choices.
    As to the safety of a gastropexy, it comes with risks. Obviously your risks are increased if you don't use a vet that is familiar with the procedure first off. Even with the best surgeon, bad things happen. Of course things can happen, a dog can die getting their teeth cleaned. ALL surgeries carry risk and as I've said on this site, you just need to decide risk vs. reward for your individual dog. No surgery is cookie cutter and all dogs need to be evaluated on a case by case basis if they are a good candidate for the surgery.

    I think those risks and situations you mentioned SHOULD be forefront of everyone's mind as they make the decision to have a gastropexy done or not. It is not a nail clipping and it is major surgery and things do go wrong. I think the percentage is very low though. Heck, my vet nicked Phin's spleen during his gastropexy. Stuff happens. Every surgery comes with a risk and it really needs to be considered. There has to be as much consideration for not doing it as there is for doing it.

    I am very pro-pexy. If the dog is healthy and is a good surgical candidate, I think the risk is most often worth the reward of potentially keeping the stomach from flipping during a bloat emergency. However, in the end, I only need to make this decision for my own dog. What someone else does with their dog has no bearing on me. I only need to make the right decision for my woofer and my job is done. I am always happy to pass on what I know and my experience. Arming yourself with knowledge is powerful. Otherwise, it's a serious conversation that needs to be had between owner and veterinarian.

    If you have decided not to do a gastropexy on your dogs.. great! Nobody is demonizing you for it. I have no doubt you've considered the risks and any benefits and have made a fully informed decision.

    Leave a comment:


  • SuzanneRM82
    replied
    Originally posted by Angel7292 View Post
    It can be trusted to provide the information that it's testing for. Unfortunately, it just represents one small piece of many contributing factors. There is so much not known about the cause of GVD and the specific cause can be so wildly different from dog to dog. There never will be a single test.

    Phin's mom died on the operating table from GDV when Phin was 3ish. Does that mean Phin has a genetic component? Nope. Even with his gassy belly issues? Nope. Phin could have no genetic risk factor even considering all the circumstances and his previous bloat issues. I wouldn't bother to test at any point because after I'm out $65, I've learned nothing of value. It would NOT change any way that I care for him, follow all the cautionary suggestions to prevent bloat, etc. If anything, it would probably make me worry even more. Ya know me, I'm a hand wringer. A 20% risk just from the get go is enough to keep me mindful of the situation.

    Obviously you are curious, so do it! I'm just thinking that $130ish is better spent at a fabric store. HAHAH
    Hahaha you sure know how to talk me out of something in a hurry! I'm not really that curious about Ferg, but some of Shark's line makes me wonder. $65 for just one would be a bit easier dose of curiosity to stomach lol.

    Leave a comment:


  • Angel7292
    replied
    Originally posted by SuzanneRM82 View Post
    Just to throw in another opinion on the situation:

    I might at some point do the test for my two just out of curiosity, but Ferg is already pexied, and Shark's time is rapidly approaching (and would already be done if I could have arranged it). As far as I know, there are no dogs who have bloated in Ferg's immediate family history, and there are a couple in Shark's line who have. Either way, I'd not be trusting enough of a brand new test/study to forego a pexy.
    It can be trusted to provide the information that it's testing for. Unfortunately, it just represents one small piece of many contributing factors. There is so much not known about the cause of GVD and the specific cause can be so wildly different from dog to dog. There never will be a single test.

    Phin's mom died on the operating table from GDV when Phin was 3ish. Does that mean Phin has a genetic component? Nope. Even with his gassy belly issues? Nope. Phin could have no genetic risk factor even considering all the circumstances and his previous bloat issues. I wouldn't bother to test at any point because after I'm out $65, I've learned nothing of value. It would NOT change any way that I care for him, follow all the cautionary suggestions to prevent bloat, etc. If anything, it would probably make me worry even more. Ya know me, I'm a hand wringer. A 20% risk just from the get go is enough to keep me mindful of the situation.

    Obviously you are curious, so do it! I'm just thinking that $130ish is better spent at a fabric store. HAHAH

    Leave a comment:


  • Hiraeth
    replied
    Originally posted by SuzanneRM82 View Post
    Just to throw in another opinion on the situation:

    I might at some point do the test for my two just out of curiosity, but Ferg is already pexied, and Shark's time is rapidly approaching (and would already be done if I could have arranged it). As far as I know, there are no dogs who have bloated in Ferg's immediate family history, and there are a couple in Shark's line who have. Either way, I'd not be trusting enough of a brand new test/study to forego a pexy.
    I'm actually not all that trusting of pexies. The scar tissue can form improperly or be torn, the spleen can still torsion even if the stomach is pexied, the pexy can be performed improperly and the stomach can be tacked in the wrong spot... I know someone who lost a young and healthy dog to an elective pexy complication. And someone else who lost their pexied dog to GDV with splenic torsion. I know several good breeders who do not pexy their dogs and are very comfortable with that decision.

    Those are all anecdotal, and not reasons to NOT to pexy, but those are all considerations that I don't see people talk about very frequently. I think it's a wonderful procedure, but I think it's heavily pushed without mention of all of the potential downsides. I've seen people on the FB group downright insulted and called irresponsible for opting against the procedure.

    At the end of the day, the only thing that's going to help prevent a dog from bloating and dying is vigilance, recognition of the signs and rushing the dog to a vet. And at the end of the day, what I support is people being informed and educated and using the information and education they have to make the decision they feel is best for their particular dog and their particular situation. If someone is doing that, then no one else should be questioning or insulting their choices.

    Leave a comment:


  • SuzanneRM82
    replied
    Just to throw in another opinion on the situation:

    I might at some point do the test for my two just out of curiosity, but Ferg is already pexied, and Shark's time is rapidly approaching (and would already be done if I could have arranged it). As far as I know, there are no dogs who have bloated in Ferg's immediate family history, and there are a couple in Shark's line who have. Either way, I'd not be trusting enough of a brand new test/study to forego a pexy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Angel7292
    replied
    Originally posted by Hiraeth View Post
    To add: In other words, anyone who thinks "I was going to pexy but this test says my dog will be fine" is being really mislead and making an unwise decision.

    I'm on the other side of the fence. I'm not planning on pexying either dog, but this test and the results may make me rethink and reassess that choice. There's a really big difference between those two situations.
    Just saw this:

    I would agree with this and that is why I posted originally. As I said initially, I worry a great deal that people will view this test as some holy grail result that their dog won't bloat. In most instances, this test has little to no value to most pet owner. I stand by my original post.

    Ok, so your dog has a genetic component, that doesn't mean it will ever bloat. Your dog has no genetic predisposition and can bloat over and over. There were dogs in this study that bloated and torsioned repeatedly and had no risk alleles (Jennifer the geneticist.. thank you again for all the info!) . That simply shows that many other contributing factors can be at play.

    My point has been and will always will be is that 1 in 5 danes have a risk of bloating and you should NEVER trust one specific risk factor.. ever. Ruling out the potential using this test, I fear will give people a false peace of mind. I just worry greatly that people will latch on to this test and give it way more weight then should be given. This test does NOT change how you should care for your dane and the risks of a potentially fatal condition. How many times have people posted on this forum that since their dog is laid back, they won't do a gastropexy? Or their dane has no known bloat in the line and that is what they are basing their decision on? I fear that people will see this test as the end-all and be-all. It clearly needs to be said... IT'S NOT! If someone decides against doing a pexy for whatever reason... dandy! I just hope they have all the knowledge and are making an informed decision. I just want them to make an INFORMED decision and not just the results of this test.
    Last edited by Angel7292; 10-03-2016, 01:58 PM.

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  • Angel7292
    replied
    Originally posted by Hiraeth View Post
    I'm very warying of pexying either of my Danes, honestly. This test would maybe convince me to reassess and risk a 100% elective procedure if one of my dogs tested with a strong genetic predisposition.

    The first bolded comment makes no sense. Since bloat has genetic ties, that inherently means that dogs with a genetic predisposition are more likely to bloat than dogs who don't. That's the whole point of identifying if something is genetic or not - whether or not the gene(s) increase/s risk. It's been proven that dogs with direct ancestors who have bloated have an increased risk of bloat.

    Second bolded comment - I see no difference in using this test to determine whether to pexy my dogs on a personal level and breeders using this test to know the results for their own dogs and for their breeding future.

    It's a small part of the picture of overall total risk. Just like with a pexy, no one should ever take it as a guarantee. I view a pexy surgery on a dog with anesthesia sensitivity more of a risk than bloat. But that assessment could change if suddenly this test determined Titan had a genetically high risk with these particular alleles taken into consideration.

    I am in the very small percentage of people who would be putting their dogs under solely for a pexy. Most people do it when they s/n, and I think that's a great time. So my decision should absolutely not effect the decisions of other people reading this. I'm in the tiny minority of people who view neutering as an unnecessary, unhealthy and invasive procedure.
    In ref to first bolded.... You have no idea how much the genetics are contributing. It could be 50% genetics and 50% bowl height (it's not.. but just random example). It could be 10% genetics but 75% of it is the quality of dog food (again, random example). A dog that has a higher risk factor genetically may never bloat. A calm dog, with no genetic component, that comes from a line of no known bloat, etc etc can bloat randomly for whatever reason the wind blows in that day. You assume that the genetics is the higher risk factor, when actually another factor could be even a higher risk factor then genetics. They have no idea. You are attempting to assign a value to this test that hasn't been figured out yet. You are giving this test too much weight and this test is simply not robust enough to carry that weight.

    As I've said to you in my previous post, what you decide to do about YOUR dog is YOUR decision. Just like spaying and neutering you are so against, it is an individual dogs health and welfare that has to be considered. There is no black and white. Lots of gray and not everything is right for every dog. Risk vs. Reward. If you want to use these test as an assessment to determine the risk of potentially putting under your anesthesia sensitive dog, then do so. Obviously, when making any decision for a pexy, spay, neuter or other elective procedure, the health of that specific dog needs to be considered.

    The only reason I'm even responding is that for most owners that will come and read this thread. Using this test as any type of indicator how to deal with the potential for bloat, has little to no value for most pet owners. An overall 20% risk is an extremely high risk for a potentially fatal condition and ALL owners should decide how to care for, attempt to prevent and treat for their own dog. What you do for your dog is your business. Just make sure we are being very clear that this test doesn't hold the value that YOU may be assigning it and they should consider ALL risk factors when deciding to pexy or not.

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