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  • #16
    Originally posted by SuzanneRM82 View Post
    Just to throw in another opinion on the situation:

    I might at some point do the test for my two just out of curiosity, but Ferg is already pexied, and Shark's time is rapidly approaching (and would already be done if I could have arranged it). As far as I know, there are no dogs who have bloated in Ferg's immediate family history, and there are a couple in Shark's line who have. Either way, I'd not be trusting enough of a brand new test/study to forego a pexy.
    I'm actually not all that trusting of pexies. The scar tissue can form improperly or be torn, the spleen can still torsion even if the stomach is pexied, the pexy can be performed improperly and the stomach can be tacked in the wrong spot... I know someone who lost a young and healthy dog to an elective pexy complication. And someone else who lost their pexied dog to GDV with splenic torsion. I know several good breeders who do not pexy their dogs and are very comfortable with that decision.

    Those are all anecdotal, and not reasons to NOT to pexy, but those are all considerations that I don't see people talk about very frequently. I think it's a wonderful procedure, but I think it's heavily pushed without mention of all of the potential downsides. I've seen people on the FB group downright insulted and called irresponsible for opting against the procedure.

    At the end of the day, the only thing that's going to help prevent a dog from bloating and dying is vigilance, recognition of the signs and rushing the dog to a vet. And at the end of the day, what I support is people being informed and educated and using the information and education they have to make the decision they feel is best for their particular dog and their particular situation. If someone is doing that, then no one else should be questioning or insulting their choices.
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    • #17
      Originally posted by SuzanneRM82 View Post
      Just to throw in another opinion on the situation:

      I might at some point do the test for my two just out of curiosity, but Ferg is already pexied, and Shark's time is rapidly approaching (and would already be done if I could have arranged it). As far as I know, there are no dogs who have bloated in Ferg's immediate family history, and there are a couple in Shark's line who have. Either way, I'd not be trusting enough of a brand new test/study to forego a pexy.
      It can be trusted to provide the information that it's testing for. Unfortunately, it just represents one small piece of many contributing factors. There is so much not known about the cause of GVD and the specific cause can be so wildly different from dog to dog. There never will be a single test.

      Phin's mom died on the operating table from GDV when Phin was 3ish. Does that mean Phin has a genetic component? Nope. Even with his gassy belly issues? Nope. Phin could have no genetic risk factor even considering all the circumstances and his previous bloat issues. I wouldn't bother to test at any point because after I'm out $65, I've learned nothing of value. It would NOT change any way that I care for him, follow all the cautionary suggestions to prevent bloat, etc. If anything, it would probably make me worry even more. Ya know me, I'm a hand wringer. A 20% risk just from the get go is enough to keep me mindful of the situation.

      Obviously you are curious, so do it! I'm just thinking that $130ish is better spent at a fabric store. HAHAH
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      • #18
        Originally posted by Angel7292 View Post
        It can be trusted to provide the information that it's testing for. Unfortunately, it just represents one small piece of many contributing factors. There is so much not known about the cause of GVD and the specific cause can be so wildly different from dog to dog. There never will be a single test.

        Phin's mom died on the operating table from GDV when Phin was 3ish. Does that mean Phin has a genetic component? Nope. Even with his gassy belly issues? Nope. Phin could have no genetic risk factor even considering all the circumstances and his previous bloat issues. I wouldn't bother to test at any point because after I'm out $65, I've learned nothing of value. It would NOT change any way that I care for him, follow all the cautionary suggestions to prevent bloat, etc. If anything, it would probably make me worry even more. Ya know me, I'm a hand wringer. A 20% risk just from the get go is enough to keep me mindful of the situation.

        Obviously you are curious, so do it! I'm just thinking that $130ish is better spent at a fabric store. HAHAH
        Hahaha you sure know how to talk me out of something in a hurry! I'm not really that curious about Ferg, but some of Shark's line makes me wonder. $65 for just one would be a bit easier dose of curiosity to stomach lol.
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        Fergus
        SC Dinnie Stone Guardian, CGC
        Eisen Shark
        C Shadows On The Sun, CGC

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Hiraeth View Post
          I'm actually not all that trusting of pexies. The scar tissue can form improperly or be torn, the spleen can still torsion even if the stomach is pexied, the pexy can be performed improperly and the stomach can be tacked in the wrong spot... I know someone who lost a young and healthy dog to an elective pexy complication. And someone else who lost their pexied dog to GDV with splenic torsion. I know several good breeders who do not pexy their dogs and are very comfortable with that decision.

          Those are all anecdotal, and not reasons to NOT to pexy, but those are all considerations that I don't see people talk about very frequently. I think it's a wonderful procedure, but I think it's heavily pushed without mention of all of the potential downsides. I've seen people on the FB group downright insulted and called irresponsible for opting against the procedure.

          At the end of the day, the only thing that's going to help prevent a dog from bloating and dying is vigilance, recognition of the signs and rushing the dog to a vet. And at the end of the day, what I support is people being informed and educated and using the information and education they have to make the decision they feel is best for their particular dog and their particular situation. If someone is doing that, then no one else should be questioning or insulting their choices.
          As to the safety of a gastropexy, it comes with risks. Obviously your risks are increased if you don't use a vet that is familiar with the procedure first off. Even with the best surgeon, bad things happen. Of course things can happen, a dog can die getting their teeth cleaned. ALL surgeries carry risk and as I've said on this site, you just need to decide risk vs. reward for your individual dog. No surgery is cookie cutter and all dogs need to be evaluated on a case by case basis if they are a good candidate for the surgery.

          I think those risks and situations you mentioned SHOULD be forefront of everyone's mind as they make the decision to have a gastropexy done or not. It is not a nail clipping and it is major surgery and things do go wrong. I think the percentage is very low though. Heck, my vet nicked Phin's spleen during his gastropexy. Stuff happens. Every surgery comes with a risk and it really needs to be considered. There has to be as much consideration for not doing it as there is for doing it.

          I am very pro-pexy. If the dog is healthy and is a good surgical candidate, I think the risk is most often worth the reward of potentially keeping the stomach from flipping during a bloat emergency. However, in the end, I only need to make this decision for my own dog. What someone else does with their dog has no bearing on me. I only need to make the right decision for my woofer and my job is done. I am always happy to pass on what I know and my experience. Arming yourself with knowledge is powerful. Otherwise, it's a serious conversation that needs to be had between owner and veterinarian.

          If you have decided not to do a gastropexy on your dogs.. great! Nobody is demonizing you for it. I have no doubt you've considered the risks and any benefits and have made a fully informed decision.
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          • #20
            Originally posted by SuzanneRM82 View Post
            Hahaha you sure know how to talk me out of something in a hurry! I'm not really that curious about Ferg, but some of Shark's line makes me wonder. $65 for just one would be a bit easier dose of curiosity to stomach lol.
            Priorities!

            Live by the seat of your well made pants... assume the worst, hope for the best. And get Shark's pexy done too. Are ya neutering him at the same time?
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            • #21
              Originally posted by Hiraeth View Post
              I'm actually not all that trusting of pexies. The scar tissue can form improperly or be torn, the spleen can still torsion even if the stomach is pexied, the pexy can be performed improperly and the stomach can be tacked in the wrong spot... I know someone who lost a young and healthy dog to an elective pexy complication. And someone else who lost their pexied dog to GDV with splenic torsion. I know several good breeders who do not pexy their dogs and are very comfortable with that decision.
              .
              I agree with you on this . A few years ago my dad lost his Mantle girl Roxy because of the pexy procedure. One of the sutures in her stomach tore the day after surgery before we even picked her up from the vet. It leaked the contents of her stomach throughout her entire abdomen, and she died a few hours later. She was one year and five days old.

              That's why I would never ever pexy unless I knew for a fact my dog had a very high chance of getting bloat. 1 and 5 Danes get bloat--I get that. And pexies don't prevent bloat either. Nothing prevents bloat. You can have a super calm dog and it relaxes in a cage for an hr after eating and it can STILL get bloat, but if there was even a slight chance that my specific dog, according to this test, had a higher risk than Dog B, yeah, I'd be going with the pexy, but I'd still take every precaution possible for the dog that did get pexied AND for the dog that didn't who apparently had a lower chance according to this test.
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              • #22
                Originally posted by Angel7292 View Post
                Priorities!

                Live by the seat of your well made pants... assume the worst, hope for the best. And get Shark's pexy done too. Are ya neutering him at the same time?
                Probably not. After she saw him in August, his breeder suggested waiting as long as we can before neutering him. I want to get him tacked (as does she) ASAP though. He has a littermate who has already torsioned and been whisked off to the e-vet in a panic. This whole bunch seems to be super slow to mature, and paired with the concern about bloat related emergencies outweighs the need to keep the surgeries together. Mom also bloated awhile after Shark's crew was born, and I think there's a grandpa on her side who died (granted, late it life, but still) from bloat related complications.
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                Fergus
                SC Dinnie Stone Guardian, CGC
                Eisen Shark
                C Shadows On The Sun, CGC

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by SuzanneRM82 View Post
                  Probably not. After she saw him in August, his breeder suggested waiting as long as we can before neutering him. I want to get him tacked (as does she) ASAP though. He has a littermate who has already torsioned and been whisked off to the e-vet in a panic. This whole bunch seems to be super slow to mature, and paired with the concern about bloat related emergencies outweighs the need to keep the surgeries together. Mom also bloated awhile after Shark's crew was born, and I think there's a grandpa on her side who died (granted, late it life, but still) from bloat related complications.

                  Yup, sounds like it would be better to do it sooner, rather then later. With all those dogs in the line, sounds like a gastropexy is your best bet. Although preferred to do it as one surgery, for a healthy boy like Shark, it shouldn't be a problem to do them at separate times.

                  Phineas has had some bloating issues. I've actually narrowed it down to a very specific people food that I've randomly handed him a small piece as a treat. It was a lot easier then it sounds, because I kept a lot of notes and saved text messages about it and I was able to pinpoint a food in common from each incident. I have narrowed it down farther to a specific brand. Other then a random upset tummy, Phin hasn't had a problem with a bloat-y belly since our last big incident with that one food and we saw the pattern. *knock on wood*. It's been a couple years though. I've been VERY grateful for his pexy.

                  Phin is a very funny dog and actually cues when he is sick. If it be his tummy, his back or a thorn in his toe.. he has a very specific sick cue. He refuses to lay on his bed and he closes a bedroom door... over and over again. When he injured his back, I couldn't even get it all the way open before he would close it again. I have no idea why he does this or how he happened on to this but it's his thing. He doesn't want the door to remain closed either. He'll kick it until you open it again. He just wants to push it closed. You always know when he is feeling better because he will leave the door alone. He has even gotten up in the middle of the night and closed the door because he was sick (liquid poo night). It is very specific and he does it ONLY when sick. If Phin closes the door, we are all on high alert and gas meds are at the ready.

                  His momma died a couple years ago from GDV at the age of 5. I don't put a lot of stock in genetics with her because of how it went down. It's quite a long story, but the gist of it is that she died after a long travel. It was decided during surgery that the damage was too great to overcome. She died on the operating table.

                  Too much unknown and too many variables come into play as to the cause. With all the circumstances surrounding sharkie-boy and his litter / mother / line, I think you doing his pexy by itself to get it done sooner is probably a good thing. It comes with a small bit of relief that you've bought yourself some valuable time in case of an emergency.
                  Last edited by Angel7292; 10-03-2016, 09:04 PM.
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                  • #24
                    this topic is 'hard subject' for me.

                    First because we were part of the study - and I would rather be in *other* (none-IBD/none-bloat) part of that study! And because the study didn't get the results I was hopeful for. Since they started to look at link between IBD and bloat, I was hopeful they'll find genetic markers for IBD; but at least by now, there is no progress in that direction AFAIK.

                    Also because seeing the dog in bloat, waiting while she was in surgery and not knowing what results are going to be; sitting with her as she was recovering, all that time thinking that none of this would have been happening now if we did pexi her! I didn't pexi her because I knew any surgery was a big risk for her; she never was 'a healthy dog'. But if you compare risks...

                    Pexi, as ANY surgery, is a risk - but it's planned, done when dog is healthy, with vet you trust

                    Bloat surgery... usually it happens when the dog is older, so higher risk just by that. Than depending how fast it was progressing, how soon you got the dog to the vet, how soon they were able to start the surgery -how much damage is done already; all that make the risk so much higher! Not to mention it usually happens off-hours, so e-vet is the only option!

                    (oh and don't even want to compare the price of pexi vs emergency bloat surgery.)

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                    • #25
                      As someone who nearly lost my beloved dog a few weeks ago, I will always pexy from now on. Our puppy had a pexy done with her spay. She literally recovered in 2 days. The pexy and spay cost around $1200.

                      Our male dog (who had not had a pexy since he was a show dog and had not been neutered) nearly died, spent about 2 weeks recovering from emergency surgery and it cost about $4000.

                      Just sharing my story as I have seen both sides of the coin. I would not risk all of the heartache and expense on the results of a new unproven test. Just my 2 cents.
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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SpecialK4182 View Post
                        I ended up ordering the kit since it's so affordable and only became available thru VetGen a couple weeks ago. I figure if it is legitimate, I learn if Egon us at a higher risk for bloat. If it's not, I can at least give my feedback to other Dane parents. Win, win.
                        Did you ever get results for this and what were they if you don't mind sharing?
                        *Jennifer*
                        Member GDC of Mid-Florida
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